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Feminism: chat

I'm asking Keir a question about women's rights on 5 live - how to phrase it?

818 replies

JanefromLondon1 · 28/06/2024 09:12

I want him not to be able to give me the flannel that we have to be kind to the woMen. I want assurances that we do t have to share our spaces. I want to not sound like the very nervous person that am I!

Any help appreciated?

OP posts:
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29
VitaSays · 28/06/2024 17:39

ElleWoods15 · 28/06/2024 17:38

@Devonbabs I’m not running for PM, and I’m not going to answer your questions which are based on the assumption that trans women are men. I think I’ve made it clear I don’t agree with that contention.

I fully agree with you that there needs to be protection for women and girls from predatory men who would seek to abuse. 100 per cent. No argument there.

The difference is I don’t include trans women in my definition of men.

So just out of interest, if transwomen aren't men, what are they?

Inthesummertimewhen · 28/06/2024 17:41

I've seen first hand at work what it's like trying to get an issue across to someone else who just doesn't get it.
In my case it was about a student I was concerned was being bullied.
The person was not understanding /interested and got bad tempered when I kept trying to bring it up. It made me feel ill with it anxiety.
Morally of course I had to keep going even though it got me into trouble.
But I've seen firsthand what it's like trying to drag a issue in front of someone whose just totally turned off.. The irony is the person at work the says how to caring he is and how he will always fight for the underdog.
🙄

Wheresthebeach · 28/06/2024 17:41

ChristinaXYZ · 28/06/2024 17:19

"If I was an athlete I'd think it was important. Or in prison but I'm not."

Lucky bloody you.

If you are a woman:

If you're in women's toilets it affects you
If you're in women changing rooms it affects you
If you're receiving intimate care it affects you
If you have conservative religious beliefs if affects you
If you're a victim of domestic violence it affects you,
If you're a victim of sexual violence it affects you.

Whether you're a man or woman it affects you if

You're gay,
You have school age children,
You have a child or children who are gay,
If you have a relative you care for who is elderly or disabled and vulnerable to her carers
If you beleive in the biology of sex then it affcets in life and work if you wish to speak out.

Vote how you like but don't selfishly moan about the concerns of literally millions of others.

Perfect summary.

Jane you are a proper star.

Harassedevictee · 28/06/2024 17:41

DuesToTheDirt · 28/06/2024 17:08

@Harassedevictee I believe 3rd spaces are the way to go as well. However, it's not always possible - small cafes for example. Some cafes only have 1 loo for everyone to share. Some have 2 loos, male and female. Should they now have to provide a 3rd one, at extra cost and using up more space? I was thinking of this when listening earlier to an interview with Angela Rayner, when she was pushed repeatedly on what a transwoman should do in a restaurant with male/female loos and she wouldn't give a direct answer, just kept saying everyone deserved respect (irrelevant), and the restaurant should provide for everyone's needs (not always possible). Plus we know that some transwomen refuse to use 3rd spaces.

I am pragmatic so it needs to be proportionate. Trains and planes have unisex toilets but major airports and train stations have the ability to offer third spaces.

Cafes that have one toilet, again no issue as unisex is pragmatic. However, large Department Stores and Shopping Centres have the space to offer third spaces.

I also heard that interview and she was silly, she should have said where there are only two toilets male and female then people should use them based on their sex. My concern is in this scenario they either both are made unisex/gender neutral or male and gender neutral, because of course it’s women that need to be kind and share.🤷‍♀️

I know some TW refuse to use third spaces but that is because they are entitled men and at present the law is unclear so they use the loophole to claim discrimination. Health and Safety regulations already specify how many toilets based on sex, clarifying woman = adult human female and that a GRC does not entitle you to enter female single sex spaces is reasonable.

I grew up when smoking was the norm, people smoked in workplaces, shops, pubs, trains, tube, buses, planes etc. legally, but more importantly culturally, it became unacceptable. Currently the culture is one of fear and most women don’t feel they can challenge, if it becomes the law over time the culture will change and trans and non-binary people will use third spaces where provided.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 28/06/2024 17:42

Viviennemary · 28/06/2024 16:07

He has more important things to think about than this. I wish folk would stop banging this drum. It really is getting on my nerves. Its not a huge issue for most women IMHO. It is an issue but not an important one. If I was an athlete I'd think it was important. Or in prison but I'm not.

It doesn't appear to be a huge issue because people are afraid to state their views in public.

Cailin66 · 28/06/2024 17:42

Hummingbird75 · 28/06/2024 16:30

He constantly talks about 'women's spaces', not single sex spaces!

VERY good point. Our next Jane must remember this point.

OvaHere · 28/06/2024 17:44

Fantastic @JanefromLondon1 🔥

Wheresthebeach · 28/06/2024 17:44

eurochick · 28/06/2024 16:59

@Viviennemary I agree politicians should stop spending time on this. They could easily do that if they adopted a sane position that protects all parties: trans people have the right to express their gender however they want through name, dress, behaviour, etc. However as they remain the biological sex they are born in limited circumstances where the Equality Act permits single sex provision they will not be permitted to access services or spaces provided for the other biological sex.

Completely reasonable suggestion, the problem is that this won't be accepted by Stonewall and TRA's.

RebelMoon · 28/06/2024 17:44

"The difference is I don’t include trans women in my definition of men."

Transwomen are, by definition, men. It's not open to interpretation.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 28/06/2024 17:44

ElleWoods15 · 28/06/2024 16:29

As opposed to the absolutely delightful echo chamber that is this thread.

FWIW, I don’t, and I make a point of reading up on both sides of the debate. Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn’t make them ‘woke’ (used in the charmingly critical sense you intended), or susceptible to propaganda as other posters have suggested.

Elle, ignore arguments about who is a "woman" - that's just a word. Look at the facts.

Female people - the ones with female bodies - exist. This is undeniable.

Female people have been stucturally and culturally disempowered in favour of men in almost all cultures, including our own. In our culture we were unable to own property, unable to vote, denied bodily autonomy wrt rape and abuse, typically given less access to education, explicitly barred from many cultural and economic arenas and in the ones implicity barred in ways ranging from being made unwelcome and ignored, to being ridiculed to our faces or in the media, to being "allowed" but prevented in practice by lack of support for our physical needs or through lack of anyone else to take on childcare, up to verbal and physical assault.

A significant aspect to this legal and then social marginalisation was the cultural belief that since male and female bodies are different, so must be male and female minds, and therefore it was right and proper that female people were excluded from intellectual, political and economic spheres, because their minds were not right for them. Female minds were assumed to naturally better the domestic sphere and for supporting roles.

And although these things are no longer legally permitted and should be socially rejected, they still cast a long shadow on how we are perceived and the degree to which we are practically supported to participate in society on equal terms with men. This is also undeniable.

Those who believe in gender identities believe in this idea of a "female mind", but believe it can occur in either sex.

I'm not going to argue about whether "women" are the people with the female bodies or the people with the female minds because that is missing the point.

Clearly, since both groups exist (even if the latter has no fundamental physical existence and is simply a belief that has arisen among some people about themselves, it is no less real or valid or existing than religions which we respect and accomodate), the two concepts - having a female body, and having a "woman's mind" - both need their own language and their own rights and to be seen as separate things.

The groups overlap of course - plenty of female bodied people believe they share something meaningful mentally with trans women and I see no need to disbelieve them - but the word Woman cannot mean both groups at same time, nor can the same Woman-only spaces and protections cannot serve the needs of both groups simultaneously.

So my issue with the way Labour and TRA-aligned politicians in general are treating this is not about the giving of rights to trans women, it is about the taking away of the language and rights and indeed political, legal and social recognition of female people as a legitimate group.

Because regardless of whether trans women are "women" or not, we, the female-bodied people, still exist, and we experience social and economic consequences because of our sex that are nothing whatsoever to do with the "womanhood" experience of trans women.

We have a different history and cultural baggage from trans women, so we have different needs to trans women.

We, the female people, need the legal and political langaue and right to identiify oursleves as a separate group to male people, to talk about and collect data on our experiences and to agitiate for whatever rights, protections and opportunities we need to mitigate it and it is not an act of hate to say this.

UpThePankhurst · 28/06/2024 17:46

VitaSays · 28/06/2024 17:39

So just out of interest, if transwomen aren't men, what are they?

Not to mention, what would you suggest re the increasing list of TW who have assaulted and raped women while identifying into a single sex women's space?

How do you keep predatory men with TQ+ identities out but let non predatory men with TQ+ identities in?

And what do you plan to do re the women excluded because they cannot share a mixed sex space regardless of how you or the man in question feels about his identity? Is it right that some women should lose all access so that men can have more choice and freedom?

Kirstyshine · 28/06/2024 17:50

Thank you, Jane 💐

Chersfrozenface · 28/06/2024 17:52

"..the assumption that trans women are men. I think I’ve made it clear I don’t agree with that contention."

It's not an assumption or a contention, it's an observable, provable scientific fact.

Human sex is determined at conception, is binary and immutable. Male at conception, male forever.

Humans cannot change sex, any more than sny other mammalian species.

So the fact is, transwomen are men.

EasternStandard · 28/06/2024 17:53

Jane if you’re asked onto a tv programme do it 🙌

BreatheAndFocus · 28/06/2024 17:59

The difference is I don’t include trans women in my definition of men

Transwomen are, by definition, male. It is male people who commit the majority of sexual offences against female people. That does NOT mean all males are perverts but it’s why we have single SEX spaces. There are lots of lovely men but the dangerous ones don’t come with a big flashing sign on their heads. Good men stay out so bad men stand out.

More than that, female people are entitled to single sex spaces for reasons of privacy and dignity, aswell as safety.

A male person adopting the gender identity of transwoman doesn’t mean they aren’t a potential risk to female people just like every other male.

ImplacableDiscernment · 28/06/2024 17:59

I do think you were clear and applaud you raising this issue. It is essentially that protection of women is spoken and out and safety is addressed.

I am part of the 51% and do not feel exactly the way you do. I agreed with Keir and would have liked to hear what he had to say.

I have experience of young people in transition M to F and F to M within my family and friendship group. They are extremely vulnerable young adults, I worry about their safety so much, I am moved to tears writing this. We (transitioning and biological females) are ALL vulnerable to these predatory, biological men.

In work, we have spaces for everyone. We have facilities for men, women and gender neutral spaces. Hopefully everyone feels safe and respected.

LemonSoup · 28/06/2024 17:59

Thank you, Jane🌺

CocoapuffPuff · 28/06/2024 18:01

ElleWoods15 · 28/06/2024 17:38

@Devonbabs I’m not running for PM, and I’m not going to answer your questions which are based on the assumption that trans women are men. I think I’ve made it clear I don’t agree with that contention.

I fully agree with you that there needs to be protection for women and girls from predatory men who would seek to abuse. 100 per cent. No argument there.

The difference is I don’t include trans women in my definition of men.

The only thing that all tw have I'm common is that they are men - adult human males.
Without them being nen, they cannot be tw.
What are they transitioning from, if that's not true?

Bicycles?

Fridges?

Wombats?

Tiddlywinkly · 28/06/2024 18:01

Thank you Jane

ResisterRex · 28/06/2024 18:02

EasternStandard · 28/06/2024 17:53

Jane if you’re asked onto a tv programme do it 🙌

Oh yes please do it!!

Hope you're settling down to a nice 🍸and enjoying your fame @JanefromLondon1. You've earned it!

Angrynotkind · 28/06/2024 18:04

I agree with a PP that support and interest for women's rights has been underrecorded and underreported due to the toxic atmosphere created by TRA. It's great to see so many folk starting to talk about the importance of women's rights and single sex spaces, and for it to be much more out in the open.

CormorantStrikesBack · 28/06/2024 18:07

I missed it and am away with shit wifi so can’t catch up but I’m assuming OP is the person who told him 51% of the population are fed up with his twaddle?

if so it’s in the daily Mail. All publicity is good publicity.

Devonbabs · 28/06/2024 18:10

ElleWoods15 · 28/06/2024 17:38

@Devonbabs I’m not running for PM, and I’m not going to answer your questions which are based on the assumption that trans women are men. I think I’ve made it clear I don’t agree with that contention.

I fully agree with you that there needs to be protection for women and girls from predatory men who would seek to abuse. 100 per cent. No argument there.

The difference is I don’t include trans women in my definition of men.

My very first question to you want “define “woman”. So what is your answer to that.

The trouble with the whole TWAW ideology is that even the slightest hint of questioning makes the whole thing tumble like a pack of cards. That is why you’re not answering questions.

ResisterRex · 28/06/2024 18:11

FPFW might be onto something. This does not add up:

x.com/fairplaywomen/status/1806722642579230889?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

"Have you noticed @keirstarmer using the term ‘protecting spaces for biological women’. That’s the kind of language that normally gets howls of derision from Stonewall and accusations of transphobia. Not a peep from the main trans rights groups. Silence.

What’s the deal here? Stonewall gives Starmer an easy ride so he can appease troublesome women voters and then it’s full steam ahead with the trans agenda once he’s in number 10?"