Please help me respond to this idiot

[avat]

I have been seeing someone (a man).

We got into a text conversation about the "not all men" rhetoric. I was explaining the statistics surrounding rape, domestic violence, trafficking etc. etc. And that no, it isn't all men, but it is all women who are at risk.

Talked about the gender pay gap etc.

He said he accepts what I'm saying but think the way I say it, means that men will reject the argument. That I'm seen as too radical.

I said, how do you think the suffragettes got the vote? By asking nicely?

He also said that I've stated the facts in a way that is posed to sway opinion.

He said that I have been patronising and made him feel like a dickhead. And not showed him any compassion, when he was just trying to help (?).

I said I can't believe I had expressed that women live in constant fear of being raped, killed etc. and somehow the conversation has ended up being about a man.

@XChrome Yes, that is what I mean.
I think some look to get laid, others are narcissist who thought they were better than everyone else so they were abusive in relationships. And they now claim to be better than other men as they repented.

Agree. I assume some of them must be sincere, but they are hard to find.

@XChrome I do not think I would ever describe myself as a feminist because I would necessarily disagree with many female feminists, which would be awkward.
Secondly, I would be identifying myself with the types of men we described.
I am not sure any decent man would TBH:

Delete and block, you're not compatible

This is a dating situation. Not a debating situation.

Just move on. You aren't compatible at all.

If you listen to the recent posters in this thread you would think men are the most downtrodden group if people to have ever existed. Fortunately no one in their right mind would believe their drivel 🙄

I very much agree!
There is a certain privilege in not seeing the problems that is hard to overcome. Choosing to assume they do not exist is obnoxious. It is only worth speaking with those willing to listen.

@Sweden99 do they really believe it though or are they just lashing out and saying whatever they think will cause maximum harm to women?

I do not know. They might be hurt.
I do not recognise the world of MN, where men are pampered regularly by hordes of eager selfless women anymore than I recognise theirs. That being said, the women posters on MN are not going to red-pill forums to troll.

@CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment The men writing here are, possibly, more reachable than most.
I think (pet theory, nothing more) that while some red pillers are hardened misogymists through and through, many are sensitive men who are hurt and handle it badly. After all, men who are merely misogynists and selfish would not need to affirm it on a forum. Those that do are probably more upset by those feelings. It does not justify the views or actions, but I thinkk it comes from a different place.
Or I am writing nonsense.

Yes, I've noticed that. MRA discussions are not infested with feminist trolls the way feminist discussions are infested with MRA trolls, some of whom make death threats and rape threats. I've had many such threats made against me in my time.

@XChrome Jeez, that is disgusting. I mean that very truely, I am disgusted to read that.

If you will allow me to indulge in cod psychology, I think patriarchy has the two sexes idealised as the man as the knight in shining armour, driven and determined unflinching. He is coming to rescue the woman, the attractive helpless maiden who has no agency nor responsibility and is there it be passively saved, feeling and grateful.
For the more sensitive people, being unable to fulfill their particular role means they choose to be the dragon instead.

That might be true of some MRA. They are weak and angry about not living up to the tough guy/knight stereotype, so they take it out on women. It seems to be a thing among incels, for example. They consider themselves losers, but since they are cowards, weaklings and lazy, they just blame it on women rather than embark on a course of genuine self improvement.

But mostly, I think the men who make these threats are sociopathic scumbags. Sometimes they are actual psychotics, but most of them are sane, but evil. I had one flaming psychotic who used to threaten me at least once a month. One of his themes was hanging me upside down and setting me on fire, then raping my children in front of me while I burned.
Another psychotic sent me a photo of Afghan women being executed and said he masturbates to it, imagining I was one of those women.
The rest of them were run of the mill sociopathic misogynists, so their threats weren't quite so vivid.
I hope I didn't put you off your dinner with that. 😄

@avat like others have said, this wasn't really a text type of conversation, but I personally would quit and move on.
The bit that stands out to me is "He said that I have been patronising and made him feel like a dickhead. And not showed him any compassion, when he was just trying to help (?)."

Just blah. Whatever.

I don't think you are writing nonsense. I do think (through bitter experience) that even though someone might be lashing out because they are hurt, it isn't always possible to "compassion" someone back to a healthier place. Or even to reason them back. If someone is determined to think negatively of an individual or an entire group, anything that that person does can be misinterpreted. It isn't as relevant online but in real life (for example) women frequently get themselves hurt trying to "fix" a damaged man with their love. Or women/girls get themselves in a pickle because they befriend a lonely man, or just try to engage with an MRA type to show him not all women are bad - but it backfires because they have "friend-zoned" him. But if they were in a relationship with said man it still wouldn't make them happy. Because when someone has low self esteem, only they can fix that.

So, even though I do think those men may be hurting I don't think its a problem women can fix or should have responsibility to fix. Which isn't the same of saying "hah hah lets kick those men in the shins and run of laughing". But I think women are quite prone to what could be termed toxic empathy and there is also a strong external narrative about it being women's duty to nurture damaged people at their own expense. I don't think it helps either group if women pay all their attention to why those men are hurting and how they can fix them.

OP he's been reading too much shit on the internet.

I hope you have dumped him by now.

@XChromen "But mostly, I thik the men who make these threats are sociopathic scumbags. Sometimes they are actual psychotics, but most of them are sane, but evil."

And that's another reason why for women at least, it isn't a good idea to assume the MRA types are hurting souls and that they can fix them. Because some people are wounded, some people are dangerous and some people are both.

I agree. People can build a mental emotional fortress to feel safe and persuading them to come out is hard.
Certainly, I would not want a woman to try and engage. I coached rugby league and coach a little boxing, which puts me in a slightly different position.
To such people, I recognise "friend zoning" and refer to it as not being sexually attractive to her. Which is what it means. I think the places lie MN sugggest a selfless average looking man with an average job will have good women throwing themselves at him and putting her first would get a selfless wife and good marriage in return, which is clearly nonsense.
I would recognise your last paragraph, but I am not sure I entirely agree. Being able to boldly show vulnerability can be quite effective for a man seeking a partner, but there is a reason it is rare. Most men anger their women by being ill, emotional needs would really be pushing it (t is a problem I hear some British women struggling with Scandinavian men who share their emotional problems with the girlfriends as they would with a mate). I think there is a patriarchal pressure to be the perfect victim and martyr, which plays out, but it takes a cold hearted man to tae advantage.
(again, I do not know, should be nonsense. This is just my experience).

I think most of the sociopathic scumbags just go about their thing without writing it on the internet for validation. Why would they, it is those in angry conflict with themselves who need the validation of shouting and getting a reaction.

I say most though. There is a limit where I can only agree with you. Sorry you are sent such stuff. I am not sure i could stay in such a place, you have a far stronger stomach than me.

I don’t think I know any woman that lives in constant fear of being raped, killed etc.
Are we supposed to live like that?

@XChrome omg 😲

Stop.

It is not your job to fix idiots. It won't work.

Move on. Don't waste your time on him.

@Sweden99 I'm not sure it is necessarily always anger exactly. I think it works a bit like game theory:
Men on the whole struggle more with showing emotions/vulnerability than women do. (We can argue about whether its nature/nurture all day) > Man shows vulnerability> this is unusual and particularly attractive to a certain type of woman** and is successful > Because its a successful dating strategy its emulated by manipulative men (who are best at faking vulnerability) and PUA types to fake connection > suspiciousness of men who massively overshare their issues too soon abounds. > genuine man shares his vulnerability and gets burnt. But also - in some cases oversharing too soon can be a sign of mental instability, (in men and women, think of your classic BPD type). I think sometimes women overcompensate and are too cautious about this. (Or as individuals they are just not very nice of course.)

I could be completely wrong, but Sweden always seemed like a higher trust society than the UK. So maybe that's partly why? Its interesting there is such a difference though.

**This sort:

See also how "Male Feminist" is such a red flag now its almost a meme.

@anothernamitynamenamechange I am actually in Denmark now!
I agree the dynamic is very different here but in some ways I think it would be horrifying for women in the UK who might idealise it. It is a crude stat, but British women and Scandinavian men are less likely to get married than British men and Scandinavian women. And when British women marry Scandinavian men, it is more likely to end in divorce than if they marry British men (the reverse is true the other way round).

I think (really guess work) that there is the Knight in Shining Armour which is equivalent to what you describe in women. It is the need to justify yourself to the Universe(/God) despite neither of those things wanting it. They will be attracted to the emotionally vulnerable.

And predators will also be attracted to it. But, I think where the dynamic is very different is that the social expectations are different. When I met emotionally vulnerable women, I would see more work than I could handle. A more predatory man would see easy prey (and one that male feminists think all other men have, as that is what they are like). It deals nicely with the patriarchal model of the active predatory man and the woman as passive object of desire.

The opposite way round is a woman and in an ordinary man, emotional vulnerability can be repulsive (reasonably so), as you write. Unless it is perfectly compatible. Some very passive, learned helplessness men will exhibit it shamelessly and their wives end up on Mumsnet wondering where it went wrong (I think this is not common).

For Scandinavia, I think they are a generation ahead. I am talking from my own experience, which is influenced by being a man who has had separate women group call me Snufkin (pictured).
There was the boomer generation, where men's feelings dominated the family. Then there was the correction, for young Scandinavians, this is all history. I remember when I had to explain to a Danish girlfriend why the British women gave her poisonous looks when she said that I was not one to complain at all when I was ill.

I live in Denmark now and the situation for women is terrible and they cannot see it. The men are lazy and emotionally demanding. I am not surprised you are happier there and it reflects very badly on you.
There is a lot of victim blaming and that you are anti-feminist is the only self-awareness I am seeing in your posts.