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Feminism: chat
OP posts:
PastaDog22 · 31/01/2024 16:02

sunshinesupermum · 31/01/2024 16:00

It is fact that Arab armies from Egypt, Transjordan, Syria and Iraq invaded the fledgling state of Israel in May 1948. The indigenous population of Arabs including Druze and Bedouin as well as Christians and Jews who were living there, was told to leave and they could return after the war was win by the Arabs. Needless to say they didn't win.

There is NO apartheid in Israel. It matters not what race or religion you are: everyone uses the same buses, sit on the same benches, attend the same schools and hospitals, swim in the same sea can vote etc. Nothing like South Africa as it once was, nor America.

Right, Gazans famously have free access in and out, and their own water, electricity and food supplies...

Yes, but what was there before the state of Israel? My own mother's family was forced to flee out of northern Palestine, by Zionist militias.

sunshinesupermum · 31/01/2024 16:14

I am sorry about your family history Pasta. We probably have more in common then you think.

PastaDog22 · 31/01/2024 16:15

sunshinesupermum · 31/01/2024 16:14

I am sorry about your family history Pasta. We probably have more in common then you think.

Thank you, that's very kind I appreciate the empathy

EllaDisenchanted · 31/01/2024 18:23

PastaDog22 · 31/01/2024 14:18

@Ofcourseshecan Zionism is clearly a fascist ideology because at its core it requires you support an ethnostate (white Jews mainly, by the way), and an apartheid system that tries Palestinian civilians in military courts by default.

The over 2 million Palestinians displaced and 25k Palestinians killed would beg to differ about whether or not the attempt at genocide is "genuine" or not. How many should we sit around and watch die in the name of avenging the victims of Oct 7th before we say never again means never for anyone?

It’s not helpful to frame this in white/brown terms. The majority of Jews in Israel are not white. Huge numbers originate from other middle eastern countries, following expulsion (‘ethnic cleansing’) and are visually very similar looking to Palestinians. Even the white passing ashkenazim are often ethnically mixed, and in the holocaust (predominantly Ashkenazi) Jews were killed for not being Aryan, ie not white passing.

PrawnDumplings · 01/02/2024 12:06

It’s not helpful to frame this in white/brown terms. The majority of Jews in Israel are not white. Huge numbers originate from other middle eastern countries, following expulsion (‘ethnic cleansing’) and are visually very similar looking to Palestinians. Even the white passing ashkenazim are often ethnically mixed, and in the holocaust (predominantly Ashkenazi) Jews were killed for not being Aryan, ie not white passing.

@EllaDisenchanted

Good point.

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 15:50

PastaDog22 · 31/01/2024 13:35

None of the freed hostages so far have claimed that they have been raped.

There are certainly witness testimonies that rapes have been, and are still being, committed in captivity. Rapes of both women and men. One woman said that " doll clothing" was brought in and women were expected to wear it whilst being raped.

Children were also injected with drugs to keep them quiet. One girl was given ketamine, which is a powerful dissociative drug.

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 15:50

@RebelliousCow source?

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 15:55

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 15:50

@RebelliousCow source?

I imagine you might dismiss the source. -but the Jewish Chronicle.

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/women-and-men-are-being-raped-by-hamas-says-released-hostage-ws3exnuq

Also, any woman made pregnant by rape is now past the point when she would be able to have a termination.

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:01

@RebelliousCow why would I dismiss it? I've just read the article and the content is abhorrent.

Israel could agree to a total ceasefire so that the hostages could be returned, all of them. But that's not the government's goal. Its goal is to flatten Gaza and turn it into a beach resort.

I still don't see how this makes it ok for Palestinians to be punished en masse. The perpetrators need to be targeted, as we've seen they are capable of doing (eg Lebanon).

pointythings · 01/02/2024 16:02

I don't think questioning each other's sources is helpful. People on this thread have dismissed the Gaza death toll as Hamas propaganda despite such data having been shown to be accurate in past conflicts. So let's be better and accept that rape is something men do in war, and that it is unacceptable no matter who is doing it. It was done wholesale to Muslim women in Yugoslavia too. It's an evil men thing, not an ethnicity thing.

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:04

pointythings · 01/02/2024 16:02

I don't think questioning each other's sources is helpful. People on this thread have dismissed the Gaza death toll as Hamas propaganda despite such data having been shown to be accurate in past conflicts. So let's be better and accept that rape is something men do in war, and that it is unacceptable no matter who is doing it. It was done wholesale to Muslim women in Yugoslavia too. It's an evil men thing, not an ethnicity thing.

I totally accept that, I just wanted to read the article myself is that ok?

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 16:14

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:01

@RebelliousCow why would I dismiss it? I've just read the article and the content is abhorrent.

Israel could agree to a total ceasefire so that the hostages could be returned, all of them. But that's not the government's goal. Its goal is to flatten Gaza and turn it into a beach resort.

I still don't see how this makes it ok for Palestinians to be punished en masse. The perpetrators need to be targeted, as we've seen they are capable of doing (eg Lebanon).

You know the definition of a ceasefire is both sides ceasing? Hamas have said they will not cease firing; and even during the last so called cease-fire they broke the rules and continued to fire rockets into Israel. Their whole existence is predicated on doing so. They abdicate all responsibility for the welfare of their own people onto the UNRWA.

Gaza had beach resorts before and after Israel withdrew in 2005; as well as lots of farms and greenhouse infrastructure. They could have developed the beach communities further and made some kind of tourist economy.

If there will had been there for a real two state solution - Gaza could have been a pleasant homeland beside the sea - replete with villas and gardens and market gardens. But because Hamas and other groups like them ( all vying for control with each other) decided their priority was the. 'right of return' they have always rejected a peaceful solution.

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:20

@RebelliousCow the insinuation that Gaza was capable of autonomy/ rebuilding/ becoming some kind of haven when under siege is absolutely ridiculous. Also what's wrong with the right of return for Palestinians? Why do Jews who have no blood ties to the land get to return but those of us who have been expelled forcefully are not given the same right?

What do you think is going to happen to the 11 thousand orphaned children who have seen their parents be literally blown apart? Do you think they're going to happily let this slide? Or do you think Israel has just radicalised a whole generation of children?

I believe they didn't comply with the ceasefire in the end because Israel didn't comply with the agreed terms (of releasing Palestinian hostages - and yes, they are hostages when they're under 18)

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 16:30

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:20

@RebelliousCow the insinuation that Gaza was capable of autonomy/ rebuilding/ becoming some kind of haven when under siege is absolutely ridiculous. Also what's wrong with the right of return for Palestinians? Why do Jews who have no blood ties to the land get to return but those of us who have been expelled forcefully are not given the same right?

What do you think is going to happen to the 11 thousand orphaned children who have seen their parents be literally blown apart? Do you think they're going to happily let this slide? Or do you think Israel has just radicalised a whole generation of children?

I believe they didn't comply with the ceasefire in the end because Israel didn't comply with the agreed terms (of releasing Palestinian hostages - and yes, they are hostages when they're under 18)

It wouldn't be under seige, would it - if Israel did not see the need to defend itself from continual attack. Israel withdrew in 2005, Hamas was voted in - and then they immediately began their jihadi war.

The reason that both Israel and Egypt guard their borders - both at sea and on land, is because Hamas and others use the tunnels to smuggle illicit weaponry and other things; and now because Iran also tries to smuggle in weaponry from the sea.

There has never been a Palestinian state - before the mandate it was part of the Ottoman empire. You cannot return to a country that has never existed. The right of return has made refugees of generations of people; including second and third generation people living in America and elsewhere in the West who have citizenship of the countries they were born in.

Palestinians are the only group who have been made refugees in perpetuity, rather than being resettled. 1,1 million jews were expelled from Arab countries in 1948. -and Israel took them in.

Mahmoud abbas has Jordanian citizenship - and yet we are expected to accept that there are now nine million registered refugees purely on the basis of being descendents of people who once lived in that area.

Israel exists. It is a country and an official state. It is productive and creative, and employs many Palestinians - or it did until the Hamas attack. You could not blame Israel for now not permitting this going forward.

The 'Right of Return' is a fanatsy that keeps populations trapped in a cycle of welfare aid and dependency - and it also breeds hatred. This is perpetuated in UNRWA schools. If surrounding arab countries had absorbed the populations in the way that Jordan firts did ( The West Bank was Jordanian territory), there would be no refugees in the Middle East and people could get on with building a healthy and productive economy and being useful citizens.

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 16:38

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:20

@RebelliousCow the insinuation that Gaza was capable of autonomy/ rebuilding/ becoming some kind of haven when under siege is absolutely ridiculous. Also what's wrong with the right of return for Palestinians? Why do Jews who have no blood ties to the land get to return but those of us who have been expelled forcefully are not given the same right?

What do you think is going to happen to the 11 thousand orphaned children who have seen their parents be literally blown apart? Do you think they're going to happily let this slide? Or do you think Israel has just radicalised a whole generation of children?

I believe they didn't comply with the ceasefire in the end because Israel didn't comply with the agreed terms (of releasing Palestinian hostages - and yes, they are hostages when they're under 18)

Unfortunately the October 7th attacks have also radicalised many Israelis, who have now lost trust or hope that Palestinians might be willing to accept a two state solution and live in peace. These were people who until a few months ago were left leaning people who drove children from Gaza to hospital appointents in Israel.

Here is an an article written about the experiences of people who lived on one of the kibbutz that was attacked. It wasn't just Hamas 'operatives' who carried out terrible crimes that day.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/hamas-palestinians-pogrom-israel

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:40

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PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:45

@RebelliousCow Also sorry, but that's so funny that your argument about Abbas having Jordanian citizenship meaning he doesn't qualify. What does that mean then regarding rando Jewish guy from the US who can't even speak Hebrew who gets a birthright trip? The hypocrisy is outstanding. If actual ties to the land mean nothing then I'm not sure how we organise ourselves as a planet...

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 16:46

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I'm neither Jewish nor Israeli, but I have read history and I understand politics.

The Kingdom of Israel existed before Islam even existed. Jews were living in Jersualem/ Palestine/Samaria for thousands of years. But none of this is now the point. The point is how you move forward.

Discussion is always better than name calling.

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:48

@RebelliousCow exactly, Jews lived there happily for millennia. It's almost like something went wrong... woah I suppose right around the time Zionists decided to colonise!

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:50

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RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 16:51

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:45

@RebelliousCow Also sorry, but that's so funny that your argument about Abbas having Jordanian citizenship meaning he doesn't qualify. What does that mean then regarding rando Jewish guy from the US who can't even speak Hebrew who gets a birthright trip? The hypocrisy is outstanding. If actual ties to the land mean nothing then I'm not sure how we organise ourselves as a planet...

It means that people who have citizenship are by definition no longer refugees. Refugees are stateless people. Many Palestinians have been kept stateless in arab countries such as Syria. and Lebanon for generations. This is to ensure that they continue to be a weapon to use against Israel. They don't care about the people, even though they are muslim arabs like them.

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 16:54

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:48

@RebelliousCow exactly, Jews lived there happily for millennia. It's almost like something went wrong... woah I suppose right around the time Zionists decided to colonise!

Muslims colonised too - killing thousands in massacres. They then built a mosque on the site of the Jewish temple.

Arabs originated in Arabia. The two most holy sites for Muslims are in Saudi Arabia. The most holy sites for Jews and Christians are in Israel/Palestine. People have been moving across the mediterranean lands of the middle east for millennia; most were nomadic peoples.

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:55

@RebelliousCow I don't really understand your point, how is the onus of those Arab countries and not on Israel to accept the existence of Palestine?

Surely the problem here is that they have been made refugees? How is that not the talking point. Refugees from where? Oh right, Palestine. If they weren't made refugees this would not be a problem. You're literally saying, because they're Arab they should be accepted into an Arab country, instead of being allowed to stay in the country they were born in. I thought earlier in this thread we established that much of Israel is Arab?

Incredible the mental gymnastics you're capable of, and the unbelievably garish racism.

RebelliousCow · 01/02/2024 16:57

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:55

@RebelliousCow I don't really understand your point, how is the onus of those Arab countries and not on Israel to accept the existence of Palestine?

Surely the problem here is that they have been made refugees? How is that not the talking point. Refugees from where? Oh right, Palestine. If they weren't made refugees this would not be a problem. You're literally saying, because they're Arab they should be accepted into an Arab country, instead of being allowed to stay in the country they were born in. I thought earlier in this thread we established that much of Israel is Arab?

Incredible the mental gymnastics you're capable of, and the unbelievably garish racism.

Israel did agree to the two state solution. The PLO did not. Palestine was never a country - it was an area of land. Much of what is now the West Bank was Jordanian land. Gaza belonged to Egypt. Before that the whole area had belonged to the Ottomans for centuries. Some absentee arab landlords actually sold land to the early zionists, whilst they lived elsewhere in Beirut, Damascus and Aleppo.

PastaDog22 · 01/02/2024 16:57

@RebelliousCow the difference is this is an ongoing colonisation and settling project, an illegal one in many parts. And immediately prior to the Nakba there was peace amongst all...