Your silence is deafening!

[Umyisraelchai]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/11/israeli-women-and-girls-have-suffered-horrific-sexual-violence-from-hamas-where-is-the-outrage?CMP=share_btn_link
Your silence is deafening!

Yes. I don’t think it’s possible to protect the people of Gaza from their own leadership.

Actually there was debate both in the government and outside about fire bombing. Dresden, for example. Churchill was quoted:

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land ... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.

"The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive."

Even though Germany had invaded the whole of Western Europe and was systematically murdering millions of people in the most horrifying ways. Even then, fire bombing civilians wasn't thought by many to be justified.

And BTW @Umyisraelchai my grandfather was one of those flyers.

And my grandmother was WAAF which is how they met.

Considering the ethical implications of military action is what sets people apart from the likes of Hamas. We're past the point where Israel needs to start doing just that.

Always struck me as curious that during WW2 bombing the dams on the Ruhr was considered a worthwhile expenditure of personal and equipment, with very little effect on the war, or on saving lives, whereas bombing Auschwitz was not a worthwhile undertaking - despite the 100s of 1000s lives it would have saved.

Clearly war is not a numbers game.

How could you bomb Auschwitz without killing all the prisoners held there though? Even the Dam busters raid led to the deaths of allied POWs.

And its not a numbers game:
"Proportionality in war is a principle that prohibits attacks against military objectives that are "expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated"12. The principle of proportionality states that the amount of force used as a tactic of war must be neither too strong nor too weak for the task to be accomplished3. The concept of proportionality assumes that the attacker has an option to limit the damage that it will cause to civilians4."

As opposed to proportionality in criminal law which I think people sometimes confuse it with "In criminal law, the principle of proportional justice is used to describe the idea that the punishment of a certain crime should be in proportion to the severity of the crime itself."

Yes, what Israel is doing is hideous. What Hamas did was hideous. But even before Israel responded in this way, there didn’t seem to be a lot of sympathy for the Israel victims. I wonder why that might be?

And while there’s a very complex history between the two, I do have to wonder, if an attack happened in the UK, as perpetrated by Hamas in Israel, I somehow doubt that there would be this much outrage against us responding to this level.

I’m absolutely not saying it’s OK, it’s hideous. I deplore all war and despair of men. But I do think it seems to be a little easier for people to dehumanize the people in Israel. Again, why might that be?

Yes, the silence has been deafening and I will never, ever forget that the world and so called feminists stood by and said nothing.

And yes I think it is #Me Too unless you're a Jew.

Regarding civilian deaths, of the 24,000 quoted by the oh-so-reliable Hamas, Israel says 9,000 were Hamas or Islamic Jihad operatives.
It has been reported that the majority of the rest were innocent women and children. Why is that? Where were all the non-Hamas men in their families that realistically should have been with them?

Every innocent civilian death is absolutely a tragedy and a stain on the human race.

Maybe the world should have listened sooner when Israel was saying that weapons were being shipped into Gaza in aid trucks, and that the Red Cross and UNRWA were complicit with Hamas. That was all well known even 18 years ago but the world was only interested in pillorying Israel for monitoring all shipments that went in.

The brutality and savagery of October 7th was absolutely monstrous. I could barely eat, sleep or function for many weeks afterwards and am still struggling now. I don't think it is possible to ever be the same person again having seen that hell unleashed.

Hamas and all Palestinian terrorist groups need to go. The Netanyahu government needs to go. The Palestinian people need to be deradicalised.....recent polls showed something like 70% support Hamas.... and the same goes for the extremist settler factions on the West Bank, and anyone who acts in any inflammatory way.

The prisoners held there were all listed for death. Few survived more than a month after arrival. Yes, coming the camp would have hastened their deaths, but it would have prevented 100s of 1000s more deaths by destrying the industrial efficiency if the mass murder process. By the time the Allies had (a) confirmed knowledge of what was happening at Auschwitz, and (b) the capacity to actually mount the air raids, most new arrivals were murdered in batches of about 4000 within hours of their arrival.

But they did drop a second atom bomb on Nagaski.

@cheshirecatssmile all I need to see is the footage of thousands upon thousands of dead Palestinian children. Or are those fake too? They somehow managed to get a bunch of lifelike dolls (despite the blockade) and cover them in dirt and blood?

You're really very brainwashed if you don't see the real humanitarian disaster unfolding. Palestinians deserve to be free. We will see how the ICJ eventually rules. I am sure Israel will be accused (rightfully) of genocide. When that happens this is going to be awfully embarrassing for all of you apparently liberal people.

Do you think Fathi Hamad is guilty of calling for genocide, PastaDog22?

Palestinians deserve to be free from Hamas.

Hamas have a complete disregard for life be it Israeli or Palestinian. Hamas only want suffering.

Shani Louk was videoed on the back of a truck. Her legs broken. Stripped down to her underwear. That is barbaric. Once you see that, you know Hamas are dogs. Everything that has happened is because Hamas want it. Disregard for life in every sense.

I was silent at first because I was so shocked. Then I was shocked that the focus shifted so quickly. I think people get their news slightly differently and the first thing they hear or consider stays as their focus for a while.

Filming crimes to me glorifies violence and is abhorrent.

But I think the only way to get rid of Hamas will be Palestinian women.

Sure. Let's see what the ICJ rules.

Because this isn't about the suffering of Israeli women being less. It's about it being harnessed by the Israeli PR machine to help make it ok for them to commit war crimes. So it is entirely relevant to say that Palestinians are suffering at a gargantuan scale that far exceeds the horrors of Oct 7th. Because they are. Because the numbers are insane. The carpet bombing is insane. The targeting of hospitals is insane. And just as Jews were persecuted in WW2 with disgusting antisemitic narratives, so too are the Palestinian people being demonised to allow you to feel ok about yet another genocide taking place.

If this post is about feminism, then where the fuck is your anger and disgust at the current situation for women and girls in Gaza? The tent scraps being used for sanitary pads, the women giving birth in camps and on dirty floors, the mother that just the other day was shot in the head while holding a white flag and her son's hand as she tried to make it back after a treacherous journey to find bread. What about those women? Right, because this isn't about women, it's about justifying the collective punishment of Palestinians.

Not sure what your point here is? The fact remains Israel is COMMITTING genocide. This is an excellent example of the distraction Zionists use to avoid talking about the very real, ongoing crimes Israel is committing.

My point is is that Hamas are calling for a genocide of Jews. Not Israelis - Jews. The attack on October the 7th included systematically organised and broadcast rape and torture.

How do you think Israel should have responded to the torture, rape, murder, beheading, burning and kidnapping of thousands of civilians?

@ArabellaScott I think they should have instigated a targeted attack, as they did recently in Lebanon to take out a Hamas leader. So we know they are capable of it. The reason they didn't is because settling in Gaza and making it part of Israel was always the plan. The ethnic cleansing of Gaza is happening in real time. There are currently conferences in Israel about the resettlement of Jews into Gaza.

So how about instead of you talking about hypotheticals your direct your moral uproar towards the actual crimes being committed here?

This thread is specifically about the sexual violence perpetrated on Jewish women by Hamas as per the OP's post. I wonder why such a discussion would bother you?

Not sure what your point here is?

Her point was clear to me and I'll also point out that what Hamas did was not also "very real", but something they have made clear they will do again.

The fact remains Israel is COMMITTING genocide. This is an excellent example of the distraction Zionists use to avoid talking about the very real, ongoing crimes Israel is committing.

There's a multitude of threads where you can discuss that - have you lost your way from the Middle East Conflict board? Please stop derailing.

The attacks on October the 7th which consisted of the rape, torture, murder and kidnapping of Israelis, including many women and children, are not hypothetical.

@ArabellaScott you're right, I didn't say they were. I said that a Hamas leader calling for genocide is not the same as Israel committing genocide. I also said Israel should have instigated a targeted attack, which they've shown they're capable of because Lebanon has not been flattened.

Any further questions?

a Hamas leader calling for genocide is not the same as Israel committing genocide

And when Hamas act on that call for genocide by attacking Israeli citizens?

Believe it or not, still not genocide. An abhorrent terror attack, yes. But not genocide.