Non conformity and the stigma

[BettyGo]

If, like me, you are an unconventional woman (an adult human female) how stigmatised do you feel, or IRL risk, for daring to participate in activities and interests outside of usual social norms of your gender role/biological sex?

There are so many things I feel left out of, both near at home and in the wider world, that I feel I could experience of it weren't for societal expectation due to my gender/sex. I'd love to hear others' perspective on this to help me make sense of own experiences and way forward.

Please excuse typos.

Not sure I really know what you mean, but I definitely fit into the category of not being conventionally feminine.
Some things I just didn't pick up on... I remember being quite shocked when my kids were at primary school and it dawned on me that almost all of the other mums dyed their hair. Managed to get well into my 40s just never giving it a moment's thought. Similarly I've never worn make up and don't really do 'dressing up' and the realisation that other women must give this stuff considerable head space came as quite a shock.
Other things I've been acutely aware mark me out as different... I remember as a young kid being annoyed that if I climbed a tree I wasn't just climbing a tree, but making a statement... it wasn't a neutral act when I did it in the way that it was when a boy did it and while on occasion I was happy to make a point of being 'a girl who liked climbing trees', at other times I just wished I could do it without it marking me out as unusual. A similar dynamic played out later on when I hitchhiked, though in general as I've got older I've got better at just ignoring the raised eyebrows - or cheers (which can be just as irritating) - from the sidelines and doing stuff I want to do regardless.

how stigmatised do you feel

Not at all.

I have met some resistance or surprise, at times, but never felt stigmatised.

The best one was the university fencing club, at which the president didn't want to allow a woman to fight sabre (not permitted by competition rules at the time). I had at my previous club, and much preferred it to the other weapons. He said he'd consider it after we'd had a foil bout, so I stabbed him in the neck.

(No damage except to his ego, and not on purpose - target areas are different for the 2 weapons, so he wasn't defending it but it's one I was used to aiming for.)

I take a similar attitude in other situations, although I am - fortunately for others - rarely armed, and find people tend not to stand in my way.

So some examples of how I feel that I'm an unconventional female and how I am actually and probably stigmatised for it.

Younger years:

Climbed trees and played with boys and pursued traditionally male games and pursuits. Exhibited male behaviours: dirty, rough and and physical. Go karts and exploring wooded areas; streams and being vocal with the boys.

Teen years:

A mix of the above, including nightswimming and other adventurous activities. Being typically socialised teenage girl, but masking my yearning for male pursuits. Joining in with kicking a football and chatting with boys. Military history, Bush craft and associated hobbies. Not being so house proud and preferring frivolity.

More recently:

Doing daring things that are seemingly only appropriate or safe for men to do. Going for a walk when at dusk/when dark, going on holiday alone, speaking up when having a differing opinion, Sports focused, traditional male hobbies, dropping in at the pub alone for a couple pints, being openly a bit sweary. Standing back a bit and not giving a fuck about my gender role and societal expectations.

Fuck. This does not cover it. Hard to put in words, it goes beyond how I look, and to actually giving a shit or not until someone takes offence at my boldness of not being or wanting to be a conforming female.

some examples of how I feel that I'm an unconventional female and how I am actually and probably stigmatised for it.

I'm not seeing examples of the latter. And most of the former may be 'unsterotypical' but aren't that unusual.

In your OP you say there are a lot of things you feel left out of. You've listed things you do, but what are the things you don't do because you fear stigma or don't feel they fit your social role?

Is going on holiday alone a stereotypically male pursuit? I thought it was more of a general "not the done thing" / something people don't feel confident to do.

@NoBinturongsHereMate Things I don't do that are stereotypically male and not judged, though would be judged if done as a female:

Have/arrange casual sex because I have sexual needs.
Make the first move.
Waltz up at the pub to watch a game of footy and have a pint or two.
Show forwardness to the opposite sex.
Give my opinion. I just mainly agree these days.
Wear my teams colours.
Arrange a wild holiday to go on my own - camping, hiking, Bush craft.
Go make up free and comfy clothes.

Not where I come from.

Where do you come from? It sounds rather old fashioned/conservative.

Avoiding giving an opinion for fear of stigma, or thinking it's not acceptable to wear comfortable clothes and no makeup astounds me, frankly. So wherever you are, I'd give serious thought to moving.

Yes.
I would be classed as unconventional.
I do medieval swordsmanship.. only woman there... people laugh when i tell them .i dont care. I do all the diy.. always have...bought myself an sds drill. .i could go on.
I do dye my hair, wear makeup, dress nice, do nails, but i also do not conform to roles expected of me..only of ones i feel like being that day/ time

I know a fair few women who do gs on your list OP. My daughters are some of them. We’ve always done things as a family and loads of things on your list I consider gender neutral. We bushcraft, wild camp, wild swim, watch football and rugby. The only thing we tend not to do, and that goes for both genders is walk alone late at night as it’s equally risky.

I have virtually no-one to pursue any of my interests or who wants to go out and socialise and chat with people. Am I such an unconventional person/ to think 'fuck it' let's go to the archaeology dig, let's watch the flying Scotsman and take pics, let's go to the gig alone, dance til midnight, take professional pics on my camera in lublic places. I've seen men do all/most of those things and more. Women are shamed and embarrassed for these things, why deny it?

@Borth Do you and your daughters follow those pursuits on your own or in a group setting?

@NoBinturongsHereMate I don't come from here, but I live in Britain. Perhaps I'm just an unconventional person and this has only a weak correlation to being female.

Who are you replying to? If you don't quote or tag people, we have no idea what you're responding to.

Both. We do a lot as a family but also do things individually. I’m a widow so have done loads on my own and my daughters have maybe picked up on this and are happy to do things on tier own too.

Women are shamed and embarrassed for these things, why deny it?

Because in my world they aren't shamed or embarrassed for any of those.

Seriously.

Archaeology and taking photos are male? Where the hell do you live?

I mean, my grandmother took photos in public places. Sometimes of trains. And she would be well over 100 now, if she weren't dead.

Your description of childhood just sounds like growing up in the 1970s - I was essentially an ambulant ball of mud for the whole of primary school, and often up a tree, playing football or doing judo. I drink whisky in pubs. I've travelled across the world alone (by train). I enjoy using arc welders.

My mother was the first female greenkeeper in her county, the first female father of chapel in her union branch, and could solder a patch on the car exhaust when it fell apart.

My great aunt celebrated her 70th birthday by treking through Nepal alone (in the 1980s).

I live in jeans and a fleece, and last wore makeup in July 2022 (some mascara for a wedding). I work at a company that has a woman as chairman and another as chief exec - neither of them are worried about giving an opinion.

You want to know your way forward? Move to somewhere that isn't stuck in the 1850s, get a more interesting and open-minded social circle, and practice not giving a stuff what other people think about acceptable levels of femininity.

@compactopera To you. But I'm not sure why it didn't show with the quote.

Am I such an unconventional person/ to think 'fuck it' let's go to the archaeology dig....

Women are shamed and embarrassed for these things, why deny it?

You do know there are professional women archaeologists?

Not to mention well informed amateurs (in the sense that she wasn't paid for her work), such as Agatha Mallowan.

And women were some of the pioneers in archaeology, long before it was a profession - Hester Stanhope, Gertrude Bell.

Agatha Christie spent a lot of time on archaeological digs.

Did Agatha Christie get pissed and shamed for it? Have casual sex and was shut shamed? Looked on suspiciously for being being attractive AND intelligent AND for enjoying men's company and pursuits? And sabotaged as a result? Thought not.

Are you British or from a country where gender roles are more forcefully adhered to? I ask because none of these are extreme examples at all and I can’t imagine why anyone would bat an eyelid. Many female children play football and wear jeans and prefer running about in woods with boys. I went to a catholic primary school in the 90s and remember one girl who preferred to have a shaven head and wear boy’s uniform aged 10, everyone just accepted it. Similarly many female adults are not houseproud or girly and might even favour masculine clothing, none of that is really groundbreaking is it?

to answer your question: I’m a woman who doesn’t shave any body hair but happily goes out in a skirt with hairy legs (I’ve shaved my head before though) I don’t want kids, I’m a messy slob who hoovers/cleans less than fortnightly and never gets up before 10am, my partner and I are both bisexual and have an open relationship, I have travelled alone while single and in relationships, I’ve walked my dogs through a “dodgy” park after dark, I don’t care what other people think of me, I speak my mind and I’m not a people pleaser. Do I feel stigmatised? Genuinely no, never.

I’ve done all of those (except watching sport in a pub or wearing team colours because I don’t follow any sports) and I’ve never felt judged or held back, I think this is in your own head OP.