Non conformity and the stigma

[BettyGo]

If, like me, you are an unconventional woman (an adult human female) how stigmatised do you feel, or IRL risk, for daring to participate in activities and interests outside of usual social norms of your gender role/biological sex?

There are so many things I feel left out of, both near at home and in the wider world, that I feel I could experience of it weren't for societal expectation due to my gender/sex. I'd love to hear others' perspective on this to help me make sense of own experiences and way forward.

Where the hell are you, Afghanistan?

Nothing bad has ever happened to me while hitching

Isn't that called survivor bias?

I think very few people embody the stereotypical concepts of femininity and masculinity 100%. People are more nuanced and complex than that. Most people are a mix of feminine and masculine traits (stereotypical), whether in appearance or behaviour. It's sad that people feel that gender stereotypes are still so prevalent and that rather than trying to label people and ascribe them descriptions that fit into neat little boxes, we just value people are individuals with different interests and traits. Personally I consider myself a mix of both but I don't think this makes me non-binary, it just makes me an ordinary person.

@NoBinturongsHereMate Your description of childhood just sounds like growing up in the 1970s - I was essentially an ambulant ball of mud for the whole of primary school, and often up a tree, playing football or doing judo.
Ditto, except cross out the judo and replace with 'riding a bike solo along country lanes' - we didn't have exotic things like judo in these parts back then.

I recently took up an activity that I blithely assumed would be mostly blokes, only to find masses of women involved in it, including at least one in her 80s who has been heavily involved for half a century. People pay attention to what she says - including the blokes. At least one of the blokes prefers coaching the women 'because you don't fucking think you know it all already.'

Another interest is dominated by blokes and I have encountered misogynistic twattery there alright. I still plug away.

I just what I want to do, on the whole. I decided as a teenager that makeup wasn't my gig, but roaming the countryside 100% was.

There are uncountable ways, still, in which women are judged for the very same behaviours and interests that society would not bat an eyelid for a man doing.

But that works both ways too. I've seen posts on this forum where women are complaining about men doing yoga and wishing they wouldn't do it.
I have male family members who are into knitting and crochet, and eyelids are certainly batted.

Not really in the way the poster was using it (comparison of experiences of each sex amoung the people she knows). But, as the poster made clear by her “for what it’s worth”, it’s not sound statistical analysis, either. Still, better than relying on podcasts as a way of determine relative risk.

This is taken just from California statistics, the first that came up when googling: ‘FEMALE HITCHHIKERS WERE FOUND TO BE SEVEN TIMES MORE LIKELY TO BE VICTIMS OF CRIMES THAN MALES. ABOUT 80 PERCENT OF THE CRIMES AGAINST FEMALE HITCHHIKERS WERE SEX RELATED.’

But that’s fine, you’re a cool girl, not like a regular girl. I’ll stick to safer modes of transport.

The poster stated that she thought women were likely to be at greater risk than men when hitchhiking. So posting a statistic that agrees is fairly pointless unless you’re going to build on it. And being rude to the poster because you found a statistic that supports what she’s already accepted but not addressing her actual point is kind of pathetic.

Zero.

Thanks for this thread. It can really depend on locality and social circle IME.

Walking at dusk, swearing, giving an opinion, being outdoorsy, taking photos in public... Where on earth is this place that these are non-conformist activities for women?? I am genuinely curious.

OP, has anyone ever actually said anything to you about your interests? Or is it an internal sense that you can't shake, perhaps from your upbringing? I've lived in cities, small towns and rurally. Particularly in the rural area where I live now, you sound like the typical woman here in almost every sense.

‘Accepted’? The PP said it was ‘probably true’ and then went on to do the ‘I know of more men than women who’ve had issues’ nonsense. Total downplaying.

Actually you come over as very conventional to me. Why do you need/want someone to go with you?

I’ve been going to gigs, theatre, cinema, F1 races, sporting events, hobbies, day trips etc. on my own for over 40 years. Yes, I get the odd comment like “how brave” to which I do an internal eye roll.

I travel on my own - road trips, package holidays, tours etc. I am happy booking separate parts of a holiday.

Safety is what usually determines what I do. Going to China I went as part of an organised tour.

Camping etc. is no thanks as I like 5* hotels and would not feel safe to me but I haven’t camped in 40 years so out of practice.

Just get out there and start living your best life. Work out what is and isn’t safe to do and go for it.

I went on holiday on my own because nobody else would take a bus then another bus then a ferry then a bush taxi to the remote African island with historical ruins that I wanted to go to. I am still eternally thankful I went for it and people's attitude was "silly white person" not "women mustn't travel on their own" probably because all the local women would do that journey on their own or with a baby and a toddler in tow to see relatives.
As I say, the main resistance I've found is to my personality (why are you not more accommodating and motherly) not my activities and preferences.

In what sense am I downplaying anything? I would never encourage anyone to hitch if they don't feel comfortable doing so, and completely understand that for many women it feels too risky. For me (when younger - it's not something I do regularly these days) the benefits, in terms of the sense of freedom and free travel, outweigh the risks.
Maybe I have led a charmed life, but I do not personally experience the world as a scary place in which I feel particularly vulnerable, and resent being told that I should start doing so. 'Trusting your gut' when it comes to assessing risk should go both ways.
Violence against women makes me so angry, but I am not willing to be cowed into restricting my freedoms as a result. To me this is very similar to the refusal to change ones behaviour in the face of a terrorist threat, and we are often told that to do so would be to allow the terrorists 'to win'. (The difference, of course, is that terrorism affects men equally.... it suits men much more to cast themselves as our protectors than it does to position themselves as in need of protection).

I agree it all really depends on your location, relations and friendship circles. I love fantasy and Sci-fi, heavy metal and was really into my real ales before a late developing gluten intolerance. I love rock climbing, hiking and off piste skiing. I'll go to bars and gigs and restaurants on my own.
Overall the more outdoors people had no issues with a lone female and respected my skills. The nerds though I find tended towards gatekeeping. Cos play is acceptable for girls, reading and having an option, less so.

It's this kind of thread that makes me feel I'm made all wrong, because minus the casual sex I tick a lot of the boxes in your example, but at 61 I can't think that I have ever been stigmatised for doing so.

The only time I even think about it is in discussions about the things woman can't do that men think nothing of doing. And me scratching my head and thinking but I do many of those things without even questioning them (or being questioned by others).

I'm not stereotypical female, but don't consider myself any the less female because of that.

@Bumpty your not made wrong nor is the op. We are all valid versions of women.

Like you I have also done many things on the list. Not all, because I’m not an outdoors camping etc person.

What I feel is sadness for the op that she has chosen to impose her own barriers on her life and in doing so has deprived herself of the enjoyment of her hobbies & interests etc.

@BettyGo I am not one for this but why not make your New Year’s resolution to do more e.g. go to the pub, a gig, on holiday. Start small and build up.

OP where on earth do you live that you feel 'shamed' for these perfectly ordinary things?

And I do not mean that snarkily - sorry if it sounded that way - I realise after re-reading the thread that you must live in a country where women cannot do these things without feeling shame. It must be bloody awful - have you thought of leaving?

@DewHopper

The op has said she lives in Britain.

I did all of these and more and never once felt stigmatised.

Reading this thread has made me realise how freethinking my parents and the society around me in the 70s and 80s must have been!

ive got 3 degrees, had lots of kids and now a 6 figure salary and not once have I felt held back or stigmatised by my sex. I feel very sad for the females on this thread have , even by doing things which are totally normal for all kids!

Sorry I missed that post. Apologies OP.

In which case I don't have any idea where you are coming from OP. All of the things you consider to be stigmatising and shameful are just normal to me and the women and girls I know. I was a child in the 70s though so maybe that's the difference?

I worry about dating because my wardrobe looks like something you’d take on a camping trip.

Do you actually go camping?

I'd suggest you could perhaps do one of two things - date other people who also dress like they're ready for a camping trip -or- go camping and hope to meet dates in the field as it were ha ha.

I recently wrote myself a story in my head that I'm terrified of dating as I don't have sexy clothes to sit over romantic dinners in fancy restaurants. Then I realised that's not how my dates would be anyway. I don't drink alcohol, I don't eat fancy food (vegan) and I don't wear uncomfortable clothes or very sexualised ones.

So anyone dating me, we'll be going for coffee, going for a walk, going for a vegan lunch, galleries, museums, that sort of thing. Otherwise we're a mismatch. So, I don't need to worry about not having slinky malinky sexy bar prowling clothes after all PHEW!!!