Non conformity and the stigma

[BettyGo]

If, like me, you are an unconventional woman (an adult human female) how stigmatised do you feel, or IRL risk, for daring to participate in activities and interests outside of usual social norms of your gender role/biological sex?

There are so many things I feel left out of, both near at home and in the wider world, that I feel I could experience of it weren't for societal expectation due to my gender/sex. I'd love to hear others' perspective on this to help me make sense of own experiences and way forward.

Well, that's rather the point isn't it? She was doing a lot of the things you mentioned a century ago, and not being sabotaged for it.

We're telling you that your experience may be your experience, but it is not normal in 21st century Britain. It wasn't normal for a lot of the 20th century.

How are you being sabotaged? Who by? Because you need to get away from them.

To be fair I get the surprise at hitchhiking. Much less safe for a woman to do. I listen to true crime podcasts and there are loads dedicated specifically to women who've disappeared while hitchhiking.

It isn't stereotyping, it's sad statistics.

I'm 62. I'm taken for approx 49/50. I don't look my age. I don't act my age, and I don't dress my age. I have what would be be considered wild hair colouring too.

I don't do mutton dressed as lamb mind. I guess my look is rock chick, punk with boho thrown in. Hair colouring at the moment is flaming copper, with red highlights and a pink block in the front. Yes, it suits me. I wouldn't wear it if I didn't..

I'm unconventional, dare to be different, activist, outspoken, alpha female it's called I'm told. Growing older disgracefully - I'm the fun, nana. Though, in some ways, I'm traditional as I love doing the normal nana stuff, too. If we bake, we make it fun in some way, for example. Everything is about enjoyment.

However, I love my makeup, skincare, etc. I go travelling on my own since my husband passed 5 years ago

I live going to live concerts etc. I also love being in my garden too. I'm a delicious eclectic delight, I'm told 🤣

I guess if you don't tick the so-called right boxes, there are many ways to be different.

I'm perfectly happy not to tick the boxes, too

i relish it, I like surprising people

I come at this from the opposite angle, being male. Work on practicing the art of not giving a shit. You're not responsible for how anyone reacts to you, and anyone cruel is just signaling they're not people worth your time.

You're up against the qualities of the chimp part of our brain, the whole need for approval and to belong etc vs inate desire to do stuff or be a certain way. Sometimes it's useful, other times not so much, especially in modern society where there is no "one tribe" to belong to but many different ones all jumbled up, so whatever you do theres someone who doesn't like or approve somewhere 🤷‍♂️ You only die once, on this random rock circling some random star somewhere in huge universe. Do what you like and enjoy it ⭐🌛🌌🌏✨

I have tended not to conform to most stereotypically female roles/interests, though I also love some stereotypically female things too. I haven’t found it stigmatizing but I do sometimes find it’s hard to make friends with women if the have just followed stereotypically female interests etc. all their lives. I generally end up finding women who are more open minded (?not sure this is quite the right word?). But there do seem to be pockets of women who are a bit shocked if you don’t put a lot of effort into appearance, can’t fathom doing things by yourself, etc. So if your workplace/family/school set/NCT group/etc. seems to have a large component of women like this, I think it could be quite lonely sometimes. I don’t find this often, and I have pretty broad interests so I can often find something to connect with even if we have very different approaches on the whole, but it seems to be more the case in the 21st century than it was at the end of the 20th (for me).

Just sounds like you’re a legend to me.

If you feel out of place maybe change your environment. I work in an industry where sweary ‘unfeminine’ women are the norm. I’ll go for a pint with you 😁

It's confidence OP, people are jealous of it. I'm not unconventional in the way you describe, I'm ultra conventional really but that's apparently wrong too. I don't think it matters what you are, if you're confident you're basically an outcast because most people(? Just women?) aren't and can't really relate to you. The jealous ones will use whatever you are to try to drag you down. How dare you be happy and confident if they aren't? 😤

I agree, some women and men can feel threatened. Not all, if they are happy in themselves.
Im pretty confident, not cocky.i find in dating, a lot of men dont like that, i feel they find it threatening, if i was a bloke they wouldn't see such a threat. Some women have said im too much...id like to say gregariously confident 🤣..its sad really. Whats 'too' much...i say if they feel that then theyre not 'enough' for me anyway. The way a woman should act. My niece said it is because i take no nonsense and boundaries are pretty steadfast now...however she also said im black and white which can be take it or leave it...i agree..but being what people expect me of being a woman makes me miserable. My attitude is from years of being treated badly, so unless im in the wrong..i am take it or leave it, its who i am.

Are you using Reply? This is a stupid thing that MNHQ really need to sort out - Reply just lets you do a new post without showing which one you’re replying to. If you’re on the mobile site, click on the 3 dots & use Quote. Not sure how it works on the app.

None at all. Possibly a bit when I was younger but I'm now 58, very comfortable with who I am, very senior at work (so not yet invisible because of rank) and with a good group of friends many of whom are NC women

Do you really feel actively stigmatised OP? Because I’d have said that a lot of things you’ve mentioned are more commonly done by men, but not stigmatised if done by women. It sounds a bit like you hold yourself back for fear of judgement, instead of just going for it.

I would generally class myself as largely living within the social expectations of being female, but I do a few of the things you’ve listed!

Where I don’t think I conform, and it definitely gets the odd raised eyebrow but not active criticism or stigmatism, is at work. I apply for jobs I’m under qualified for (and sometimes get them!). I negotiate my salary. I’m confident about expressing my opinion in meetings. I will always take a seat at the front, or at the table, not hover in the background. If I get feedback that I’m a bit much/pushy/etc I acknowledge it and just steer the conversation to my achievements.

Actually, the thing that really does take people aback is that I’m comfortable stating my qualities. “Are you stressing about Christmas?” “No, I’m very organised and a good cook so it’s easy for me” - that gets real side eye!

OP you need better friends!

Or just do the stuff you love anyway.

Maybe you need to move location.

Where I live (north, classed as 'not cool') I could/can do any/all of the things you describe without anyone batting an eyelid.

The only thing is, don't be leery in social situations/when drinking alone. Then people just think you're a tit.

Oh, top tip.

Join a women's sports group/team (to train with/play against) other women in a sport that is commonly played by both sexes... so hockey, cricket, rugby, football - probably not tennis/netball/golf which are more traditionally women's sports or have a specific 'feminine' / 'ladies team' vibe.

There you will find lots of lovely, diverse, grown-up women who are confident in themselves, often don't mind doing stuff on their own and are comfortable with being a bit different.

I have heard/read women being judged for all of these things.

I don't think it is at all true to say that judgement of this type doesn't exist.

As I approach 50 I look back on my life and see a mix of typical and untypical. I have been to gigs on my own, I enjoy travelling on my own, and I have been to the pub, to read a newspaper and have a pint alone.

I have encountered hostility from men, called names like "slut" and had literal stones thrown at me for dressing unconventionally as a teenager. I was an indie kid living in an Essex town. But I have not really altered my behaviour as such. I do dress in dresses and such but paired with trainers or Dr martens as I have yet to work out how to wear heels. I like make up, I dye my hair but I also like band t shirts. I like being clever and opinionated and share my opinions with people including men. I do get underestimated, all the time which I never fail to find irritating.

I think the secret to being yourself is not realising there is a choice. I was raised by parents who were very much themselves in Dads case, unapologetically so and in Mum's she was so crippled by self doubt, fear and self loathing and at the same time was different from other mums - never wore make up, or dresses and was outspoken and brutal in her honesty.

I now understand that she is autistic which explains much of her differences combined with her depression and anxiety. I learned that being yourself, however it is expressed is ok (assuming it doesn't harm you or other people). I don't worry so much about other people or at least I find that it isn't enough to stop me doing what I want to. As the alternative, a life limited by uncertainty and social interactions crippled by speaking your truth then spending weeks agonising over what you said, is unacceptable.

I don't have the energy I used to, which is limiting.

I'm very much a person not a woman in my eyes, I don't want to be defined as being female. I'm as happy getting my hair and nails done for a ball, as I am up to the eye balls in mud or doing DIY. At 33 I think the lines between traditional male/female roles/activities are being blurred hopefully forever. I also hate female only teams/classes for the sport I do which was traditionally male, going to woman's classes ruins the gains our generation made to train with men as equals.

I am not at all sporty but I am outdoorsy though where I'm "non conforming" it's in attitude not just interests.
I wanted to do things girls couldn't in the 70s - camping with Brownies, sing in the church choir, but not football.
I'm not motherly to eg trainees at work which seems to be expected of women in senior roles. I put myself forward for promotions but I don't get them (I seem to look good on paper and suck at interviews because I've had loads of those!)
I got in trouble for telling teachers they were wrong and didn't have much luck dating because (according to my mum and Jane Austen) men don't like it when women know anything.
But I was a good girl/religious (though not ever conservative) so was quite innocent in the ways of the world when it came to myself (didn't judge my friends, just didn't follow their path, thought it was ridiculous that women weren't supposed to make the first move etc, that it was ok for men to sleep around - just didn't want to do that myself).
I have had loads of friends who were happily sporty, engineers, liked steam trains, never heard of any of them being sabotaged. I don't even really know what that would look like!
I know I'm disliked for being direct and not caring enough but I no longer care.

I did an archaeology degree 30 years ago (because I wanted to be Indiana Jones) and there were tons of women on the course, more than men I think, and some of them are archaeology professors now, so I'm not sure it's a male endeavour.

I wear outdoor/hiking type clothing 24/7, never wear makeup or dresses, etc.
I felt ostracised by the girls at school then nothing much till school gates, where all the cliquey mums turned their noses up. All the social events arranged were spa days, nail days, etc. which are my idea of hell. My nails tend to have mud under them rather than extensions or whatever.
Oh, my mum has given me grief my entire life for: not being feminine, not wearing dresses, not wearing makeup, not dying my hair, not liking shopping, the list is endless.

But, I found a group of mum friends who liked going for muddy walks rather than ladies who lunch.
And I've never felt excluded by men in group activities like running or archery or going to the pub.

Stop worrying about what others think of you and just live your life.

I think you’re confusing sex - (being female, so a biological woman) with gender bollocks (tired old feminine stereotypes).

And are you actually suggesting that men have no physical advantages over women - that the Lionesses could beat the male England team if they just trained harder? Because I’d love to see the scientific data for that.

Thanks all. Lots to ponder on here.

I like to dress feminine, look after my body, etc... love flowers, etc, etc. It's not so much about the traditional gender costume.

It is my uncoventional ways which I find raise eyebrows - women AND men. I notice the archeology comment was picked up on more than others, though that just one minute piece of the bigger picture I'm trying to illustrate on how female non conformity is stigmatised.

There are uncountable ways, still, in which women are judged for the very same behaviours and interests that society would not bat an eyelid for a man doing.

I’m not conventional and don’t really relate. Maybe it’s small town mentality? This is why a lot of people flee small towns and / or their families of origin.

Im not sure what is meant by ‘sabotaged’

I’m 58, and long term single. If I didnt do most of the things being put forward here as ‘daring to do’ I’d be sat in my living room covered in cobwebs.
I’ve been to hundreds of gigs on my own, from stadium to local pubs, also theatre, cinema and festivals.
Ive been on numerous holidays on my own, joined groups for some bigger more exotic stuff because its cheaper and easier - nearly always meet another woman similar to me.
I dye my hair but don’t wear make up, I am frequently seen on my local high street looking like Ive been dragged through a hedge because I’ve spent the day on my allotment.
I haven’t worn a heeled shoe for 30 years, sometimes I wear a dress, sometimes its jeans.
I dont go to the pub and drink pints because I don’t really drink but have no problem sitting in a cafe/restaurent and having a meal on my own with a glass of wine.
I follow some sports - football and athletics mainly, but have a passing interest in many others.
I walk on my own after dark because sometimes I have no choice.
I speak my opinion - its as valid as anyone else’s. In fact when I was still working, colleagues would often come to me because they knew they would get an honest view, or a different take on a situation, or have an angle they hadn’t considered.
I really don’t see the issue with wearing team colours, I see dozens of women and girls around with footie, rugby shirts etc.
I don’t give any of this a second thought. If people are going to judge you, they will do so. I don’t really care what anyone else thinks, I do what I want to, and I have plenty of friends who love me for who I am.
Honestly, just get on with your life as you want to and stop worrying what other people think.

I've never been conventional. I'm audhd, very late diagnosed. Yeah, I've had grief over the years for not following convention, such as the right clothes, the right activities, opinions. I was very much a tomboy as a kid, and I don't seem to have grown out of it.

Ultimately, I don't give a shit. This is me, and I'll dance to the beat of my own drum.

I'm not sure that a sample of true crime podcasts that you've listened to counts as 'statistics'. I think our society fetishises vawg and female fear, and I imagine that true crime, as a genre, plays into that. But even if it is true that women are at greater risk than men when hitching (and I guess it probably is), that in itself is not reason enough to suggest that women who do it are foolhardy while men are not. I mean, it's pretty indisputable that young men are at greater risk of dieing in a car crash than young women but I'm not hearing anyone suggest that young men shouldn't drive. The relative risks are never quantified, or compared to other risky things we might do in our day to day lives, and yet it appears to be taken for granted that the cut off between an acceptable and unacceptable risk falls between the risk to men of hitching and the risk to women.
For what it's worth, my own experience of hitching as a woman is that you get picked up very quickly, and meet lots of very interesting people. Nothing bad has ever happened to me while hitching, but I know several men who have found themselves in hairy situations... interestingly people's reaction to this has usually been to laugh it off / treat it as a good story (and then use it as further evidence that I, not they, shouldn't be doing it)...