Can straight men be feminists (asked by a straight man)

[dontwanttobethatguy]

In youth I (like every other teenage boy) unconsciously assimilated misogynistic ideas that were imprinted on me by our culture. Think a rural background with socially conservative working class people. I was a teenager in the era of lads mags, 1990s, pre internet. Access to porn was nothing like today, but the message coming from the media (FHM etc) was implicitly that women existed to service men one way or the other. The route up for female pop stars/presenters was basically, kids TV, lads mag shoots in bikinis, basically trading on female bodies and the expectation that they were a commodity for heterosexual male consumption (I see it now as promotion of a madonna/whore duality as being the perfect women for a man). I went to Uni, horizons broadened, and over time I saw the issue and attempted to change myself. I've thought about this a lot as things seem worse now with turbo charged access to porn and MRAs with huge international followings on social media.

So on to my question, can straight men be feminists or at best, are we only ever active non-misogynists swimming against the tide because of the culture we live in and the assumptions imprinted on most of us in youth?

Do you call out misogyny when you see it?

From friends and relatives?

Do you engage in 'locker room' banter?

I think straight men can be, but it's frighteningly rare.

If you truly fight for equality for women yes. Lots of men have sisters and daughters who they want the best for.

Also many women are misogynistic. It’s heartbreaking how many women hate women.

Do you watch porn now?

Have those horrible whats app groups with other men?

Do you think women have to have partners, kids, or do you support single/celibate/childfree women?

Do you treat less conventionally attractive women worse than good looking women?

Do you have to see/call yourself a feminist, why isin’t ally enough?

Fo you actually care about women? Or just the women you know / good looking ones?

Again, do you watch porn, now? Paid for sex, strippers count?

Yes. I do try to speak up. In the workplace it is harder because of power imbalances, but I find that there is (where I work) very little obvious misogyny (professional services). It's a broad church with impressive female leaders amongst the men. When I do see it, it's more at the level of micro aggression and unconscious bias, so I try to nudge. And I asked to be nudged if I fall pray to it. Think mansplaining, talking over, not listening, taking a women's idea in a meeting and receiving credit for it. I come from a long line of working folk though were challenging locker room talk (to be kind about it is), can be very difficult. In those scenarios, were there has been no reconstructive work on male assimilated attitudes, it is frighteningly difficult to speak up, and in those environments as a very young man, I think the older guys who didn't agree with it had to express disapproval through non-engagement, either in collective bantz, or to respond passively/negatively when hearing or seeing it at a one to one level (and not being friends with those people). It's all about power I think and the ease with which someone can speak out. If dissent was simple, the world would be a better place.

Imagine how you feel about speaking up, now imagine being the woman (or girl) at the brunt of all this.

The only way misogynistic behaviour can be beaten is by men calling it out. Everytime. Because men don't listen to us.

Oh fuck off, of course you can be. Most men I know are. Read a book.

I'm not going to answer each point directly, but do want to engage with your point. Is there an acid test for this with a pass or fail. Also, is there consensus on the basic points in the list, and what if a person meets most but not all of them. Imperfection is the human condition is it not. I do agree though that you couldn't really regard someone as non misogynist if they are not adhering to the points you identify.

I think men can be allies, and fantastic ones, but not actual feminists.

I consider it to be similar to a white person in apartheid South Africa who can see the system is wrong / unfair.

There are some things you can do to change that BUT you had a better education (or at least an education designed for males, usually with a uniform based on male clothing).

Your school was probably sexist, even if not intentionally.

If the police are called to your home you expect to be believed and the police expect that too.

You earn more.

You can choose where to live, women have restrictions purely due to being a woman eg not renting a ground floor flat.

You expect to go through life not being assaulted and if you my point about the police still stands.

The legal system is set up for you.

You have more opportunities.

If you play a sport professionally your pay will be not just higher but significantly so, and any sponsorship the same.

If you are somewhere afterdark no one will tell you not to be in that area or out at that time because you are inviting harm.

Even disposable razors are cheaper for men.

I could carry on but I think you get the idea.

Yes. I understand and I am listening. I think that the promotion of listening is the key to tackling MRAs. I started this thread as this morning walking to the station, I was hurrying, and realised I had caught up to the young woman in front of me who I had not previously noticed. She glance over her shoulder as I approached from behind with that look of fear that comes from being a young woman not knowing if male violence is a threat, or if it's just a bloke rushing to the train. I wasn't in her space, about three meters away, but I was walking quickly and it struck me as depressing that she had to think that way. I crossed the road asap, before the crossing point to convey that I wasn't a threat.

I do get your point. I think there might be a distinction between being a feminist and being a non-misogynist because of those structural imbalances. I guess it's why I'm asking, but think it is open to debate.

I'm always up for debate. I think it is 'lived experience' which is different for everyone but has commonalities for various groups.

No men cannot be feminists.
Feminism is for females, males are naturally excluded.
My own experience of the men who claim to be feminists is that they are usually the first to shout over women when women discuss things in the workplace.

This told me everything I needed to know.
So back to your original question, I think men can and SHOULD BE, allies.
Most aren’t and usually the one’s that are, are like you, and I don’t think any woman needs that.
I don’t get a say who is or isin’t what , BUT I would not want someone like you to speak up for feminism or me as a woman.

Any sensible feminist idea from men will be met with a barrage of misandric nonsense.

Yes. I accept the point about about feminism requiring a female perspective (meaning XX genetics and cultural experience). So I guess what I am asking next is whether there is such a thing as active non misogyny as a counterpart to feminism for those of us with XY genetics. Not something in place of or above feminism, but a cultural/ideological vehicle through which men can hear, receive and assimilate feminist ideas. There may be lots of writing on this already. I'm still finding my way with it all. I'm just alarmed by the power that MRA are gaining amongst younger men and think that there is a need for something to combat it.

Please can anyone explain why no one starts a topic on Misandry.

I see it everyday here. Raw and violent hatred of men.

Any sensible feminist idea from men will be met with a barrage of misandric nonsense.

@Martin83
I only spend time on feminist sites that are mostly or only women, so genuine question: can you give some examples of ’feminist ideas from men’?

I'm just alarmed by the power that MRA are gaining amongst younger men

And @dontwanttobethatguy , What are these MRA points you have noticed? What is it that worries you?

Yes of course they can.

This is it exactly.

I don't want to speak for women. I want men to listen to women. I think you made some good valid points about things that constitute misogyny. But attacking each other doesn't progress the conversation and blunts the force of the good points we can make or the change that we can bring. I didn't engage with questions about me personally, though I could have done and could have answered in a way to provide reassurance, as I'm not seeking sainthood and didn't want this to be about me and whether I pass a purity test. I'm just after a conversation about how straight men can assimilate feminist ideas in a misogynistic culture to help order my thinking on the issue and personal growth. The responses, including yours, have helped me with that. And I thank you.

I'm not sure what being straight has to do with your question.

Do you think gay men aren't real men so therefore can be feminists? That sounds like homophobia.

Actually gay men can be very misogynistic, having no 'need' for women other than to rent their bodies to create a child.

Sorry, this was a reply to @DidIMissOut

I think claiming feminism when you are not female is problematic and always runs the risk of overriding and dominating women's participation in feminist action.

However, that should not prevent you from being an ally. After all, either you support women or you don't. No need to feel sad if some of those women don't agree that the label "feminist" should apply to you!

@Martin83 it is tedious the regularity that some man comes along and claims "misandry" on posts about feminism and men. So what if some individual women hate men. Often it is with good reason due to trauma from male violence. And what harm does this cause for men? None. The hatred of men by women takes the form of protecting themselves from harm, not any action against men themselves.

Stop worrying your head over whether or not you can be a feminist. If you have a heart to help women, donate to charities that aim to end forced marriage in the UK and abroad, join the campaign to end FGM, host Afghan refugees who have fled a misogynistic regime, sponsor women in Africa to start their own businesses, put pressure on evil extremist regimes that forbid women from working, driving and voting, make Christmas shoeboxes for poor teenage girls in Ukraine.

These are the kind of things people should do if they're really concerned about women in the world. Fretting over micro aggressions and "equality of outcome" is just tiresome, easy virtue signalling.

I as a men can see a genuine problems for women in relation to unaffordable childcare, poor maternity terms, erosion of family values, the working culture which is very male orientated. There are lots of real life issues where women are thrown to the back of the queue but for some unknown reason they blame pornography.