Can straight men be feminists (asked by a straight man)

[dontwanttobethatguy]

In youth I (like every other teenage boy) unconsciously assimilated misogynistic ideas that were imprinted on me by our culture. Think a rural background with socially conservative working class people. I was a teenager in the era of lads mags, 1990s, pre internet. Access to porn was nothing like today, but the message coming from the media (FHM etc) was implicitly that women existed to service men one way or the other. The route up for female pop stars/presenters was basically, kids TV, lads mag shoots in bikinis, basically trading on female bodies and the expectation that they were a commodity for heterosexual male consumption (I see it now as promotion of a madonna/whore duality as being the perfect women for a man). I went to Uni, horizons broadened, and over time I saw the issue and attempted to change myself. I've thought about this a lot as things seem worse now with turbo charged access to porn and MRAs with huge international followings on social media.

So on to my question, can straight men be feminists or at best, are we only ever active non-misogynists swimming against the tide because of the culture we live in and the assumptions imprinted on most of us in youth?

My (possibly simplistic) definition of a feminist goes

• do you agree that women are treated worse than men in today’s society?
• do you try to do something (anything) to change this?
• if so you are a feminist

On that basis yes of course you can be a feminist. I don’t agree you have to be female.

I agree with a PP though, why does it matter whether you can give yourself a particular label? Actions are much more important.

Okey, this opened up little where you’re coming from.
I do think male allies are important, but the thing is, they are needed the most when women aren’t around. And also, men need to understand what misogyny is, what it looks like, what it details.
That is why I asked those questions, they all are part of misogyny. And you just deflected it to ’purity test’.

Lets say you’re on a WA chat with group of men, some of them share porn. If you don’t see this as part of the problem, won’t call it out, take part in it. How could you help? And if you were (with the same group, who knows you support this) and call out some other sexist remark or whatever, why would they take you seriously.

And I also asked about looks (should have also add young women) because plenty of men do listen to women, as longs as their young and pretty.

I hope you can see where this is going.

And let me say that I fo support men to learn about thing, speak up about it (TO MEN, women already know), and make better choices.
I haven’t ’attacted’ you, know that that is a microaggression.

Again, if you want to make positives changes and help women, amazing. That is very much needed and good luck with it.

So I am ND. Something I have discovered/accepted in mid life. And it helps me to be able to categorise ideas. But I'm not someone with an unchanging rigid belief system, so the the system of categorisation can change if a better idea comes along or the facts change. A lot of posters are highlighting the power imbalances between men and women that are baked into our culture. I do believe in structural inequality, so I'm sort of thinking that with those imbalances, I tend to agree with posters that think women can be feminists because of their experience, but men can only be non misogynists (my wording for allies) because we don't suffer the same structural barriers. What I'm thinking is that then allows a conversation between men and women about how to pull down those structural barriers together, at which point the need for categorisation perhaps (hopefully) fades.

@DidIMissOut I think you are right to focus on male personal behaviours. I will think about what you have said and how I can improve my own.

It does sound like homophobia. But I neither think, implied or gave your premise in any of my posts. I'm straight, so I went with that as the starting basis for my question. I am sure that gay men can be misogynist or not, but it's a different debate. I don't know though. I'm not an expert as is plain to tell. Just inviting views of others.

I don't think it matters how you define yourself (as feminist or as ally etc), the important thing is your actions as a man not wanting to perpetuate sexism and discrimination. Keep speaking out and acting for change, including being brutally honest with yourself and accountable for yourself as a man.

At the bottom of it all I don't think we men can understand women. I gave up years ago to understand my wife I just love her.

'For some unknown reason they blame pornography'

Yeah, it's a total mystery. No correlation at all between seeing women as a sexual object for male gratification and being able to treat them as equal humans in the real world. 🙄

Is there an acid test for this with a pass or fail.

///

To be fair OP you did ask if you could be a feminist and a checklist of tangible actions or do's/dont's but s probably the only way.

I believe what someone does tells us more about them than what they claim to think.

And also agree that all best you would be an excellent ally.

If more men were excellent allies than I currently see, the world would be much better for our daughters

Ah. I see a man has come on to tell us we're all man haters who blame porn for the fact we still need feminism

Which in a way demonstrates beautifully why we still need feminism

OP, this is also helpful for you to see as regardless of what you do to help the cause there will always be some of your sex with these attitudes.

See what we're up against?!

Men shouldn’t call themselves feminists, in my opinion. It doesn’t sit right and comes across as presumptuous. I can understand that the word ‘ally’ has a lot of negative connotations now, but I think it is the most fitting word. I am trying to find an analogy to describe what the problem is. It’s a bit like a man saying ‘we’re having a baby/pregnant/had a miscarriage’. All of these are things which happen to women and not to men. Men can be caring, supportive and emotionally affected by these things, but the physical reality is something experienced by only women.

You appear to have come on here asking to be congratulated for not alarming a woman you were walking rapidly behind.

My question is -- why would it matter to you whether you were counted as a feminist or not? Surely the point is to engage in behaviours that challenge misogyny, regardless of label?

😂😂😂 Is it misandrist to mention how men are always expecting women to sort things out for them?

Here, Martin, let me hold your sweaty hand and guide you:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/create-thread?topic=chat

Or you might prefer this:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/dadsnet

.

That wasn't my intention. I think I've asked a difficult emotive question that is challenging for people, me included. Praise isn't part of that.

I wonder if it is worth differentiating structural barriers from misogynist ideas and beliefs, and also what is simply down to nature.

Women and girls will always be wary of men gaining on them from behind, for as long as men are bigger and stronger than them, and as long as rape is a thing. Ours isn’t the only species to have larger males and rape. So although it isn’t belief or structural inequity which causes this fear in women and girls, we can create structural protections - which is a different thing from ‘tearing down’ barriers.

Thank you GarlicGrace I never knew DadsNet existed. Not very popular but nice to know.

It’s not ’difficult’ or ’challenging’ for most of us (women) here.
And it’s really not you.
It’s just that we’ve seen you male feminist before.
And it’s usually not good.
Mist of the time what happens is men come and explain feminism to women, when they should be talking to men, women know already.
Or then they (like martin here) defend porn, hook-up culture, ’kink’ and sex industry, often times calling women all sort of names.
Or they ’support 50/50’, that usually only means they want women to pay, no talk or thought to other things re: equality.

There are ither examples, list would be endless.
Most men’s feminism is only below belt.
And we all have seen it now, too many times.

Being a feminist does expose one to hostility, mainly from men but also from the women we sometimes call 'handmaidens'. This hostility is both interpersonal and institutional. It takes courage.

Women face more of this hostility, and more intensely, than men standing up against misogyny. However, the experience of being shut down by 'the patriarchy' is unfamiliar to men so it could feel more disconcerting. If you have brown skin, you would likely have endured something similar but it would still feel new and threatening.

I happen to think men can be feminists, regardless of sexual orientation! The necessary commitment is unusual for men, though. Thanks for being a decent ally, and all power to your continued efforts in support of female liberation.

Women expressing themselves in response to your question are not being "emotive". Women demonstrating mild reactions instead of being congratulatory and appeasing often get accused of being emotional or overly reactive. It's tedious.

I don't think the label matters.

Be an ally to feminists. Actively counter misogyny where you see it. Do it because it's the right thing not for praise. I think you (somewhat unusually vs some men who post here!) know this.

Women as a sex are all fairly weary from having given the ‘benefit of the doubt’ too many times. Many men persist in a state of near constant sexual frustration in a way women simply don’t. It means we have experienced so many male strategies for getting our attention - and are a bit purse-lipped and arms-folded, when a man strikes up a conversation, in an almost female-only space.

I am deeply suspicious of male feminists. I also think the word "ally" has become meaningless.

I wonder if it is worth differentiating structural barriers from misogynist ideas and beliefs, and also what is simply down to nature.

I'd go further: nature is the fundamental reason we are unequal, and the majority of societal structures reinforce rather than redress that inequality. It is our biology - our smaller stature, lower overall body strength and especially upper body strength, the fact that we are penetrated during sex and the fact that we get pregnant - that makes us vulnerable to men. We are only as safe in private and as liberated in public as men allow us to be (in a mixed-sex society or in heterosexual relationships). Only men truly have the power to close the gap between men and women and abdication of this responsibility by men is bad for women. Feminism needs buy-in from men; I think men can and should be feminists.

A very poor choice of words on my part. I meant emotive for all not specifically women. Apologies.