Can straight men be feminists (asked by a straight man)

[dontwanttobethatguy]

In youth I (like every other teenage boy) unconsciously assimilated misogynistic ideas that were imprinted on me by our culture. Think a rural background with socially conservative working class people. I was a teenager in the era of lads mags, 1990s, pre internet. Access to porn was nothing like today, but the message coming from the media (FHM etc) was implicitly that women existed to service men one way or the other. The route up for female pop stars/presenters was basically, kids TV, lads mag shoots in bikinis, basically trading on female bodies and the expectation that they were a commodity for heterosexual male consumption (I see it now as promotion of a madonna/whore duality as being the perfect women for a man). I went to Uni, horizons broadened, and over time I saw the issue and attempted to change myself. I've thought about this a lot as things seem worse now with turbo charged access to porn and MRAs with huge international followings on social media.

So on to my question, can straight men be feminists or at best, are we only ever active non-misogynists swimming against the tide because of the culture we live in and the assumptions imprinted on most of us in youth?

I just feel that many base their suppositions on assumption.

Like with porn. The reality is that many women like being sexually dominated. I remember reading a study which found that the most common male fantasy was 'pleasing a woman sexually' whilst the most common female fantasy was 'being dominated'. They said this was consistent with previous studies.

Meanwhile, around 50% of women claim to enjoy rough sex and slightly more than half have fantasised about being forced by a man. Obv this isn't the same as real life rape but it explains why so many women seem to like this kink.

When pornhub allowed a google data scientist to analyse their data they found that whilst men were by far the majority of users, women were more than twice as likely to watch the most degrading stuff (gangbangs/choking etc). It seemed to suggest that women are actually in general more kinky than men which I'd agree with from my anecdotal experience.

Other studies have shown that watching violent porn is more common amongst women who've been sexually abused, so it may be related to trauma yet nonetheless it's seemingly a red herring to suggest that it's mainly watched by men which seems to be the default view despite the lack of evidence to suggest this.

New data reveals that women in their droves are searching for porn with tags like "extreme brutal gangbang", "forced" and "rape".

A quarter of straight porn searches by women are for videos featuring violence against their own sex. Five percent of searches by women are for content portraying nonconsensual sex. While men still search for significantly more porn than women, search rates for these more extreme types of sexual content are at least twice as common among women than men.

"If there is a genre of porn in which violence is perpetrated against a woman, my analysis of the data shows that it almost always appeals disproportionately to women." The feminist porn movement – one focusing on equality and empowerment – might be thriving, but the data shows, proportionally, women are also consuming much more of the most extreme misogynistic sexual material available online.

Researchers found that 52 percent of the women had fantasies about forced sex with a man, 32 percent about being raped and 28 percent about forced oral sex with a man. Overall, 62 percent of the women reported having had at least one fantasy around a forced sex act.

The researchers then investigated if the women's fantasies were indicative of "sexual blame avoidance", a hypothesis that women socialised by our slut-shaming culture chose forced sex themes to negate feelings of shame and guilt. The opposite was found to be true. Women who reported being less repressed about sex were more likely to have rape fantasies, more open to fantasy in general, more likely to have consensual fantasies and finally, they were found more likely to have high self-esteem.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/bm9w7v/why-are-so-many-women-searching-for-ultra-violent-porn

Personally, no.

But you can be a feminist ally to the women around you.

Don’t speak over women or for them, but when you see an opportunity to speak up for women, do so.

For example, there are current workplace issues:
inequality of pay
misrepresentation of the Equality Act
discrimination against pregnant women

Educate yourself about what you might be able to do if you’re in a position where your actions could make a difference

In your personal life try to recognise your privilege - cross the road if you find yourself walking behind a woman at night and try in other ways to show you’re not a threat. (And try not to resent our assumption that you might be)

Try to understand tat the world is organised around men and masculinity and think of ways you might challenge or change that.

It’s tough work for all of us. Thanks for asking about it.

This ^^

I see most of the points I’ve made have been covered in this excellent thread.

It’s quite heartening to read. Thanks OP.

I'm still following the thread and reading each contribution. I've started watching some of the recommended YT videos. And I've had a look at some of the books (only digests of the key ideas though because of time constraints). I hadn't fully appreciated the range of opinion within feminism or some of the discussions/splits between those who strongly identify with the second and later waves (and whether the idea of waves is even accurate or useful anymore). Naive of me, yes, but therein lies a point, this stuff isn't widely promoted to young (or any) men at all, you have to go looking for it. And stumble badly along the way. How do we change that though? There lies another question? Again, I appreciate it may draw sighs from those who've been grappling with this issue for Eons already.

If you want to read anything read the book Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men by Caroline Criado Pérez.

Feminist theory is a mess especially now with the so called "third wave" that dropped the ball and turned it into a joke.

The book shows the larger issue with society and why men can't be feminists because they don't see the issues.

You want to know how to change things. Like I said in my previous post, you start conversations about data and reality. Also conversations about consent are important.

That is the foundation that needs to be acknowledged. Once you get that women are always an after thought to everything you will get it better. Respect for women, and just for people around you in general, needs to come back.

Have conversations, both online and in person with other men.

@OneMorePlant I'm planning to look at that book thank you. My query is more directed to how to open it up to other men. I get you can lead by example, and try to teach your own sons etc. I'm more worried though about men without such role models, meaning those who are susceptible to the MRAs (I'm not naming the MRAs as I won't give them a single atom of oxygen). How would you tackle that issue, as I see it as a structural thing that renews the cycles of pain and violence. I have to say, I think a lot of men would be happier if we could get past some of the most obviously gendered ideas about basic masculinity (meaning work, family, and parenting). But we seem unable to do even that!

I wouldn’t worry about whether you can be a feminist or not. If you aren’t female you don’t have any direct experience of misogyny, so it’s debatable

Just be a great ally

In your case it sounds like the most useful thing is to call it out when you see it at work, and also promote a active as well as reactive agenda - so if you know women get spoken over in meetings, what can you do to get that stopped overall, as well as just call it when you see it.

Do a bit of reading so you see more or what might have until now passed you by.

Rape is not "a kink". A fantasy has no relation to reality. And pornhub have very, very good PR that push the message that "everyone watches porn, its harmless, women watch it too" and that they are socially responsible.

Here's some stats about frequency of porn watching by sex

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1099039/pornographic-websites-access-frequency-gender-france/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/661314/gender-distribution-of-pornhubcom-website-traffic-in-selected-european-countries/

Pornhubs own stats show that far fewer women than men watch porn and they aren't watching violent porn. In fact they watch lesbian porn with some commentators (like below) suggesting this is because lesbian porn is more female focussed and less violent.

https://mashable.com/article/pornhub-year-in-review-2022

In terms of "rough sex", having hair pulled, being bitten, scratched or lightly spanked in the context of a loving relationship is very different to being punched, slapped, spat on or forced into sex, yet both can be covered by "rough sex".

Most women who say they like "rough sex" are talking about the former.

https://www.menshealth.com/sex-women/a19545710/best-kinky-sex-for-women/

It is disgusting to suggest that women are complicit in their abuse because they "like it". Typical of the pornsick society we live in though.

Not trying to shut down debate, but I think where this thread is aiming, is around dialogues between feminists and non-misogynist allies. Porn is obviously a big area for discussion, but risks derailing the thread (as it normally leads to a takeover by the voices on MN less interested in discussion, and more interested in full on conflict). I would say it's something for a separate thread (and as the OP I've been ignoring the aspects of any PPs that are being provocative about porn). I'm not the MN free speech police though! Just politely asking that discussion be on its own thread where I'd happily take part.

Yeh exactly how has he not got this ffs 🤦🏼‍♀️

Op I just want to say that I wish there were more men like you. I hope you continue to show your support

Mate, you started a thread to ask women's opinions. Please don't then try to police the thread's direction. Women are allowed to talk about the stuff they want to talk about, even on your thread. That's pretty much feminism 101.

Pressed send too soon:

And also, discussion of porn is highly relevant on a thread about feminism and allyship. Anyone regularly consuming commercial porn is no feminist ally. Commercial sexual exploitation of women is a huge issue. Huge. Probably 'the' issue, actually.

@LaviniasBigBloomers I don't think that is a fair characterisation of my request. There is an inflammatory post down thread suggesting that woman like aggressive porn and referring to alleged statistics from Pornhub. I don't know if it was a bad faith post, or just someone deluded or with some other agenda. But I felt it was distasteful and provocative and had the potential to derail, or collapse the discussion, as I could see how others felt compelled to reply to it. I tried to make clear that I'm not shutting down debate, it's just that I'm finding this thread useful and don't really want it to become an unreadable tit for tat that anyone sensible has to abandon (as is the problem for many threads). I have no control over what people post, nor am I exerting power over that. I made a polite request and every other person has the personal agency to decide how they wish to proceed. It was neither an order or an enforceable diktat from me. Not really looking for an argument. Those are just my thoughts.

Tbf, those articles don't really contradict the one I posted.

The one I posted did find that men watch much more porn in general but women tend to watch the harder stuff. It's not saying that this is their favourite category but rather that they're the majority of those that do watch it.

The below graph from one of the articles you posted shows that women are 30% more likely to watch hardcore, bondage, and gangbang videos which is generally the rougher stuff.

It's not about making women look bad, it's about having a conversation around the right data/facts. Without that it's meaningless.

Well.. this woman's opinion is the OP is right, the dive into stats about porn is a derail that would be better taken off to another thread.

Fair enough, I don't really want to derail the thread but I'm just saying it's a bit disingenuous to go on about men being 'porn sick' and then suddenly want to change the subject when somebody posts stats showing women are actually more inclined to watch the degrading stuff.

I don't think it's surprising and I'm not sure it's something we need villify women for because as stated above fantasy isn't the same as reality. Women are more likely to be sexually submissive/enjoy being dominated and that's what the stats reflect.

I purposely ignored your posts until now because you were derailing but I just can't stand this nonsense any more.

Your "stats" showed nothing but more porn degeneracy. Women react to trauma and stress by different ways of self-harm. Most women who were victims of sexual trauma will fantasize about sexual trauma in some dissociative state. Most women have a history of being the victim of some type of sexual assault ergo it is just logical quite a few women fantasize about violent sex. They don't need pornhub they need a therapist.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0145213494901155

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/womens-attitudes-and-fantasies-about-rape-function-early-exposure

Women do not "enjoy" being sexually submissive and being dominated. It's a survival instinct to be quiet and still and a psychological process to try and cope with repeated trauma.

So just stop derailing this thread with your very weird posts.

I think talking about this, sometimes a simple comment is enough. Like if you see some other guy behaving badly, just commenting about it to people you are with about it can be enough to either open a conversation or making them think.

Men do need good role models and they are hard to find. If you find good youtubers that are respectful towards women for example you can recommend them to guys. It does not even have to be by mentioning they are respectful of women you can just recommend a game video or vlog and the guys will see for themselves.

I agree with you that a lot of men would be happier if they would get past their fragile male egos or sexist stereotypes that seem to be back from the past for some reason.

Men were doing decent in the 90's doing their thing, wearing pink shirts if they wanted to, wearing eye liner if they wanted to. Same with women they were doing their own things. 2000 hit and the world went to shit.

You men really need to come together a bit more and socialize and talk about things and not in a red pill/mgtow kind of way. That is not something feminism or women can fix for you. You need to do that yourselves and keep each other accountable.

I think you would find "Men who hate Women" by Laura Bates interesting op. She very specifically is looking at the "manosphere" and the influence of the Internet on boys. She also writes about some charities founded by men to try to counter this, which would give you some places to see what other men are doing to help.

The graph is ridiculous. What women are watching is being compared with men as a default, and there is no male equivalent showing what men are watching more of than women. There are no numbers on there, so you have no idea if the "30% more" watching bondage is 10 women or 10,000 women.

I also am highly skeptical as to how PH would know women were watching it. Other research shows women rarely watch porn and often if they do its with a partner.

It's also entirely irrelevant to the debate what women are watching. Men consume most porn and a lot of the porn positions women as objects and is violent and degrading. Either that's how a lot of men view women anyway, or through watching porn they become desensitised to what they are watching, which must seep out into real life.

I found this helpful:

I'm not sure I agree.

I'm sure some on here will call me a handmaiden or whatever the latest term is but I feel like if you're going to make claims about a significant demographic (half the population in this case) you need to have some pretty solid data to support it.

It feels disingenuous to complain about the violent porn men supposedly watch whilst claiming that what women watch is 'entirely irrelevant', particularly when the data both you and I have posted appears to show that women are actually more likely to watch the type of porn you're criticising men for watching. In this case it seems to me that what women watch is entirely relevant.

I mean, imagine if a white person complained about black people committing racial hate crimes but claimed that what white people did was entirely irrelevant and refused to discuss it!