Can straight men be feminists (asked by a straight man)

[dontwanttobethatguy]

In youth I (like every other teenage boy) unconsciously assimilated misogynistic ideas that were imprinted on me by our culture. Think a rural background with socially conservative working class people. I was a teenager in the era of lads mags, 1990s, pre internet. Access to porn was nothing like today, but the message coming from the media (FHM etc) was implicitly that women existed to service men one way or the other. The route up for female pop stars/presenters was basically, kids TV, lads mag shoots in bikinis, basically trading on female bodies and the expectation that they were a commodity for heterosexual male consumption (I see it now as promotion of a madonna/whore duality as being the perfect women for a man). I went to Uni, horizons broadened, and over time I saw the issue and attempted to change myself. I've thought about this a lot as things seem worse now with turbo charged access to porn and MRAs with huge international followings on social media.

So on to my question, can straight men be feminists or at best, are we only ever active non-misogynists swimming against the tide because of the culture we live in and the assumptions imprinted on most of us in youth?

In youth I (like every other teenage boy) unconsciously assimilated misogynistic ideas that were imprinted on me by our culture.

Your original question depends on this being true for all teenage boys. It isn't.

Many teenage boys read wider than lad mags and employed the power of independent thought and principles of equality and decency.

Feminism is a belief in equality, so surely everyone can be feminist?? It’s a political movement, not an identity

not everyone has lived experience of being discriminated against due to their sex in the way that women have, but equally I (as a woman) don’t have experience of being told not to cry, etc
doesnt mean I can’t advocate for men’s rights as well as women’s. True feminism is intersectional.

I dont think it helps anyone to put barriers up, we need everyone to be feminists!

Feminism is a belief in equality

It's a bit more than just that though.

"True feminism" is not intersectional with men's rights.

Everyone can be an egalitarian.

Everyone can be a decent, empathetic human.

Only women can be feminists.

This really. If men are concerned about the problems that society causes them, don’t expect feminists to be concerned or to fix them. We should sort out our own stuff. And feminists don’t need men white knighting for them. Each group can deal with their own issues.

Each group can deal with their own issues

Up to a point. Some of the societal 'structural sexism' issues need to be addressed by society as a whole. Is the disparity in the amount of care for children and older people currently shouldered by women a 'women's issue' that men ignore? I hope you'd agree the answer to that is 'no!'. And while male violence should be an issue men deal with, that doesn't exactly seem to work...

I'm still following the thread and looking at what people say. Thank you.

If you've ever thought,or relegated, delegated a task to a woman because you think it's 'more her line of work' or better suited to it because she's a woman ,then you are not a feminist. Unless you're in a sector of employment where vulnerable women and girls need the support of another woman.

@ErrolTheDragon and @ladymalfoy45 you both kind of hit on something that occurred to me. Feminism, to me, has lots to say about breaking into traditional mens domains but less to say about driving men in the other direction. More doing the undervalued work/tasks should naturally raise the value & status. Given sexism & perceived lower status, its unlikely to be initiated by men, without a shove. I am one, but distancing myself from that point of view!

It's not a novel concept! As to the value and status of jobs, it's depressingly well known how the status of teaching fell and computer programming rose in line with male participation.

The ones that realize their daughters are also females.

In my workplace I have female bosses and female reports. I go on talent. I have a report at the moment (female) who I'm championing for a permanent role with a promotion as she is highly capable. I have a another report (male) who I have said we should performance manage. Up the ladder, there is a female leader who inspires me, and another that I consider over promoted. It isn't personal, or about a person's sex, it's just about job capability. I have also spoken with older male managers before when they have referred to female colleagues as "girls", noting they do not call the men "boys". Have done that in private and in front of others. Not looking for a medal, it's just that I want to be clear that I agree and do seek to advance people on merit.

Sorry for the second name change. Have a three year old sat on me at moment and stuffing play doh up my nose !!!

I also now think the premise of my original question was flawed. I should have asked how men can advance female equality and help to overcome cultural misogyny. I am concluding that it is by listening, reading and assimilating female views, including those that are uncomfortable about masculinity, sex and power.

Yea, I work IT so I know what you refer to, and that's definitely not what I'm suggesting! Ada Lovelace, the women who coined the term bug and other stories. That's muscling in as the practical value became apparent, and dominating. For selfish reasons, I don't enjoy the fact I work mostly with men and I don't enjoy the sexism and mysogony I've witnessed in some of my workplaces

I'm referring to balanced representation.

I strongly believe that there should be a subject in school to teach boys how to be a proper gentlemen. How to behave around women. How to be kind, honourable, courteous men. Something which is missing in young men.

@Martin83 I agree that adolescent men need more support and education, but I doubt we would agree on the things that it should include. It isn't about old school manners, gendered ideas of men and women or courtesy and kindness. I would like there to be a greater educational emphasis on sexual consent, the impact of domestic violence and it's forms, and the prevalence of misogyny to combat toxic masculinity. This might counter some of the voices telling young men that they are entitled to sex, power, dominance, and money, and can simply take it if they are strong enough from women and the weak. I think there is an almost fascist appeal to MRA content creators, who pray on the young, disenfranchised and the alienated. The sad thing is it isn't a philosophy or even a way of life. It's just a grift exploiting these young men by selling the lie that they take back control and can profit by exploiting others.

@dontwanttobethatguy You might find this interesting - it's a discussion from a couple of level headed people about perceptions that surrounds feminism.

s

There are defo male feminists out there.

This might counter some of the voices telling young men that they are entitled to sex, power, dominance, and money, and can simply take it if they are strong enough from women and the weak.

Strictly speaking, the strong can and do take power from the weak. Like it or not, that's how men like Trump get into the whitehouse and men like Andrew Tate become influential.

Unless we can make power and money inconsequential it will continue to be that way. But how do we do that when resources are tied to money?

Men can not be feminists.

They can be allies, but never feminists. I used to think otherwise but with age I understood that men just don't get it. They live in a patriarchal society and they don't get some of the big issues let alone the nuances that are different for men and women. It's like asking the blind to help describe colours.

The best thing men can do for women is to start discussions with other men. And before you can start about women's issues you all need to start take accountability for men's actions and talk about it.

When there is talk about rape the conversation always steers towards the victims. Never is mentioned that 99% of all people that commit sexual assault or rape are men. It's just conveniently glossed over.

Violent crimes are committed by 88% men.

Men who commit domestic violence and rape are often also perpetrators of very violent crimes. Most terrorists have committed domestic violence and rape.

When ever this is talked about men come out of the woodwork all butt hurt and start changing the subject. Crying how men are painted as the bad guys. Well here is a hard to swallow pill for you, you are.

Then there is the discussion about porn. Most young men, and a lot of older ones, now are porn sick. Many act like it's normal to watch it. It really should not be.

Not only because it's at best the exploitation of vulnerable women but mostly it's abuse and rape caught on film. Porn has become violent and entire generations of men are orgasming on women being abused by being rammed hard, by anal, chocking, slapping, hair pulling. And most don't give a flying fuck about how it affects those women.

It also has repercussions in the way they see and treat women in real life.

Start by having those conversations. When you get somewhere maybe then you can start thinking about feminism.

I think it sounds straightforward when you lump all men together into some homogenous group. However, in reality what is the average UK male going to do about the Palestine conflict, or even about the violent male two streets down from him?

I also don't think we can 100% assume things would be better in a matriarchy. Men commit most war crimes because they're in power, and they likely attain power because of their high testosterone, greater physical strength, and greater inclination to work together than women - this pattern of men dominating started centuries ago when warfare was still hand to hand combat and winner takes all without NATO alliances etc.

In a matriarchy we would probably just see the most aggressive women rise to the top and history shows that in the rare instances that women attain power they can be as bad, often worse, than male rulers.

For example, Historians believe that Elizabeth Bathory is very likely the most prolific murderer of females to date, with a body count estimated at 650, most of whom she sadistically tortured to death with hot pliers etc.

Queen Isabella founded the Spanish Inquisition which went on to torture thousands of females, and that's before we get to Bloody Mary killing hundreds of protestants , Wu Zetian murdering many including her own family, Princess Olga of Kiev burning political opponents alive, Irene of Athens having her son deposed and his eyes gouged out, Queen Ranavalona of Madagascar murdering family members to retain power and starving her aunt to death, Elizabeth I persecuting the catholics, Catherine the Great deposing the czar by force, Cleopatra conquering Egypt, and Isabella of France deposing her husband via coup.

There are many more but I think this is enough to illustrate that powerful women can be extremely violent too when given the chance. In some ways we might be worse in power as studies have repeatedly shown that women don't collaborate as well as men and that a man/woman are more likely to work well together than two women (but still not as well as two men).

We also resent working for other women and the studies repeatedly show that women favour male bosses and are less likely to cooperate with a more powerful woman. So a minority of aggressive women ruling the world could well be worse than the violent men and much more volatile for all we know. I mean, even looking at mumsnet will show how much more inclined to squabbling we are than men.

Only if you describe enthusiastic discussion as "squabbling", ffs. Because men never have enthusiastic discussions about anything

And no one is calling for a matriarchy.

And no one is calling for a matriarchy.

I've seen it suggested many times on here that things would be better in a female led world. I don't believe there's much evidence to believe it.