White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

Which posters are keen to move the thread?

Was the 30 page thread about a political individual being de-banked and where the individual (who was in charge of one of the 4 largest financial institutions in the UK) was employed to set the ethical tone but boasting about breaking the rules put in place to prevent individuals from applying economic pressure to minipulate public policy?

Being de-banked for political view when feminism is seen as a political movement?
I cant see the connection either🤷

The thread has already been moved.

I'm interested in the discussion about how white women have benefited from (insert thing) at the expense of black women.

Or I would be if I was allowed to talk. Which I'm not. So as you were.

Or I would be if I was allowed to talk. Which I'm not.

Yet hear you are, posting and posting. It's like people posting on twitter that they've been silenced.

I don't think feminism belongs with racism, ever. It's one sort of oppressed people supporting the oppression of another, and it's abhorrent.

How do white feminists benefit? I don't get any benefit from another woman being harmed. I oppose it, in fact. Campaign against it.

I'm interested in the discussion about how white women have benefited from (insert thing) at the expense of black women.

Have you ever noticed the difference between media coverage of black women and girls who are raped/missing/attacked?

If not I would suggest you take a look at the language used and the way crimes against them are described.

We benefit from a system set up and held up by white supremacy. There is also a lot of white fragility.

Great article here

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

and here

https://mashable.com/article/white-feminism-explained

You know how if you don't consider the impact sex has on women men take over and women get forgetten? And that's when 50% of the population are men. Can you not see that in a similar way, white women, at around 85% of the population tend to do the same when they don't consider race. It doesn't mean that they are all being deliberately racist.

How? What's the benefit to me if a black woman suffers?

Please give me a concrete example as phrases like "systems of white supremacy" don't mean anything to me.

THIS.

I always said 'I am not racist' but I really had to unlearn all the behaviours that I didnt even realise were problematic.

https://www.waterstones.com/book/why-im-no-longer-talking-to-white-people-about-race/reni-eddo-lodge/9781408870587

This is also brilliant and also touches on whitewashed feminism.

Its natural for our first instinct as white women and white feminists to recoil in defensiveness at the idea of our behaviours can be problamatic.

It isn't about you having any benefit to another woman suffering, that isnt what it means.

I have added some great articles above that give an overview of WF.

So the harm is women not considering race enough? And that benefits white feminists how? And what's the solution? We all need to focus on race even more? How does that help? Could you give some concrete examples please? Preferably related to real world situations. Thanks.

A concrete example of white feminists benefitting from structural racism etc is the me too movement. Originally started by black women, but they were completely overlooked and forgotten in favour of white actresses years later.

You literally said white feminists benefit from other women suffering. Please give an example of how. Thanks.

Replace race with sex and imagine a man saying this to you.

I gave an example earlier.

I have.

What work do you expect to be done about it?

I'm not sure that it's necessarily about white women benefiting from harm to black women. But it's definitely true that, if we're talking feminism in this country, white women are benefiting more from many feminist fights than their women of colour counterparts. It's in the intrinsic acceptance that white women reaching places of leadership is "enough", it's in the way that white women have to fight to get a place at the table but they can.

we know that the concerns of women are not thought about when there are no women in the room. So of course the concerns of women of colour will not be thought about (most likely) if there are no black or brown women in the room. That doesn't seem controversial to me.

I am white and much as I try to educate myself, I'm fully aware that there are nuances and challenges faced by black women that I don't know about. I'm aware of some of the ones in the traditional workplace because that's where I spend my time and I have spoken to women there. But that's just a small sample. We need to hear more of these voices so that we can have a better, broader understanding.

How are black women harmed by a movement they initiated becoming mainstream?

I think you are being deliberately obtuse.

Okay, I'm imagining it and I don't see a problem? It's a different conversation as there are concrete things that need to be done for women to have equal opportunity, e.g. maternity rights, childcare etc. These benefit all women, BTW.

I don't see a direct parallel with race here. It's not clear what 'considering race more' means or how it helps. Or how it benefits white feminists to not consider race more.

Not at all. If you think I am, please explain your example. How are black women harmed by me too becoming a popular Hollywood campaign?

Erm, because as per fucking usual, black womens voices were ignored? Because society only listened when white women spoke up?

How do you think that would feel?

I think that Crenshaw was spot on in her intersectional analysis and that there are particular struggles that black women face. Two that have been mentioned include with respect to maternity care and the media and others not valuing the lives of black women who have been abducted or gone missing (as much as for some, but not all white women).

When we can get onto talking about these tangible issues please do let me know.

You're still focusing on active harm and I agree, you're being deliberately obtuse.

The reality is that the more white women's voices are heard, the more black and brown women's voices are not. That is harmful. It's not actively kicking someone in the teeth, but it's still harmful.

Maternity care is a good example. theoretically, maternity care that is available to all women is good, of course. But we know that even when maternity care is, theoretically available, black women's care is often not as good. their concerns are ignored, their pain written off. By the same doctor or midwife who might give ME excellent care. so it's all very well saying that women's rights are for everyone when it comes to maternity care, but you're doing harm if you don't accept that additional elements may need to be in place to make that maternity care genuinely available, at the same level, for ALL women.