White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/29/1041362145/me-too-founder-tarana-burke-says-black-girls-trauma-shouldnt-be-ignored

The reality is that the more white women's voices are heard, the more black and brown women's voices are not.

Where on Earth do you derive this from? It's not a zero sum game!

From the lived experiences of black and brown women.

They weren't ignored, though? The campaign gained momentum because of who the victims of Weinstein were. Those were the women who pushed things forward. But some black women claimed to have started the hashtag and have been acknowledged for that. They haven't been ignored and there are certainly plenty of black women in Hollywood who have big platforms to talk about me too and other issues.

I agree with you that it feels shit to be ignored or overlooked. But that's celebrity culture overall.

The founder of the Me Too movement would disagree with you.

There you go - Tarana Burke is acknowledged as the "founder" of me too and has a platform to speak on issues. It's great! White Feminists are not keeping her down at all.

Feminism is feminism. Women treated as lesser is a universal experience that transcends ethnicity. I'm sure BAME women experience sexism differently in some ways but that's not the fault of white women.

As with the trans tussle, I refuse to be held accountable for issues that are rooted in men's behaviours.

It seems to me that the people getting upset at the idea that race should be considered in feminist discussions are the ones who seem to think that white women are actively trying to harm black women. And that's not the case. the point is that by not considering the additional factors that race plays, it can be easy to ignore or downplay specific impacts for women of colour.

And the more defensive you get claiming that there's no relevance in including race as part of the discussion, the more you actually prove the point that white feminism is an issue. You're not even willing to see that there might be additional challenges or that a black women's perspective might be different but still valid.

It's depressing but you are right, bowing out and letting them prove how damaging WF is by denying it exists, despite all the resources available from black and brown women to explicitly lay out their experiences.

From the lived experiences of black and brown women.

Nicely played. Because, of course, if I dispute this or ask for more evidence or explanation I'm immediately racist.

@redrighthand83
From the lived experiences of black and brown women
What a cop out

Why would you dispute someones experience? You want to ask black women for evidence in how they have been harmed? REALLY?

And no you dont ask them to do the labour for you. Google is free. Go and find the answers yourself.

There are several links on this post alone you can click on.

There seems to be a distinct tendency amongst some to make this more about making white women feel guilty than about making real gains for black women.

Who is getting upset and defensive? And who is claiming race has no relevance? Please quote and reply to specific comments because it's really unhelpful to be so vague.

I have asked multiple times for concrete examples of how white feminists benefit from harm done to black women, which is the claim made by various pp. All I have had in response is the example of me too, which could potentially be an example.except I don't see how black women specifically are harmed by the me too movement. It was said, because they were ignored - but then pp posts an article which demonstrates the black woman who founded me too is being acknowledged as such and has a voice.

So I would ask again, please give me concrete examples of how white feminists are benefiting from harm done to black women. Since this claim keeps being made so confidently, I'm sure you'll have no difficulties finding many clear examples. Thanks.

There are several links on this post alone you can click on.

Almost all American and none that prove that point.

I'm interested in the lack of response regarding the known fact of poorer maternity care for black women.

Also, the lack of response re the reality that black women are routinely expected to "wait their turn" when it comes to being represented in leadership positions.

Also the fact that the way black women and girls receive a different type of reporting when they are harmed?

these are all concrete examples, mentioned on this thread. And ignored by the people who claim that all feminism is the same, no matter your skin colour.

@redrighthand83
I don't want to click on random links you've gone fishing for. I want you to argue your point like a grown woman

Ironically, it is perfectly fine to discount white women's voices and to stereotype white women as all racist and to say ww shouldn't have an equal right to speak. We are supposed to just sit down and shut up. But that's not racist! You can't be racist against white women because we are all powerful and can't be harmed. Or something.

How does any of this benefit white feminists? That's the question. Not whether there is racism against black women - of course there is! I don't think anyone on this thread is denying that. But HOW DOES THIS BENEFIT WHITE FEMINISTS PLEASE?

@MsMarch
Those are all important points but if BAME women are engaging to a lesser degree with mainstream feminist movements, then whose fault is it these points are going unraised?

White women for not speaking on behalf of BAME women?
White women for not encouraging BAME women to get involved?
What are you insinuating here?

You said earlier, Okay, I'm imagining it and I don't see a problem? It's a different conversation as there are concrete things that need to be done for women to have equal opportunity, e.g. maternity rights, childcare etc. These benefit all women, BTW.

ie directly saying that race doesn't play a part in these issues, they're the same for all women.

And repeatedly, it's been pointed out that it's NOT the same.

You're also amusingly hung up on your "gotcha" moment of black women being harmed by white feminism. It's obvious that you figure if you take that to its extreme, you can prove it's wrong and the whole thing falls apart. But as has been said, repeatedly, the harm isn't necessarily in actively pushing black women further down. It's in not hearing their voices, not allowing them a seat at the table, not considering their issues....

So you say, So I would ask again, please give me concrete examples of how white feminists are benefiting from harm done to black women. Since this claim keeps being made so confidently, I'm sure you'll have no difficulties finding many clear examples. Thanks.

And you are feeling smug because you think that you've caught us all out. But you haven't. You're just continuing to be obtuse. But perhaps a slightly dramatic version might help:

In the maternity care example you keep ignoring. Same hospital. Two women, both in distress. If the black women's concerns/distress is minimised (which we know is an actual thing that does happen) that frees up the doctors and midwives to prioritise and help the white women who may or may not be as severely at risk as the black woman.

OOOOH WE'RE SHOUTING NOW!?!?!!?!?!?

I'm out after this becuase really, you are so uninterested in even thinking about what people are saying.

But here's another example - if there's only ONE seat at the table, and it's always given to the white women, black women don't get a chance. That's an active harm and one where a white woman is specifically benefiting.

You are so determined not to be seen as racist that you're completely refusing to listen to anyone else's voices. It's possible to accept that feminism tends to centre white women without feeling you are being attacked but instead use it as a way to educate yourself and think about other perspectives. But clearly that's not true for you.

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm simply saying this is a fact and that we should consider it and try to educate ourselves and think about these things.

The point is that it's not on purpose. Doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Wow this is a lot of projection! I'm not feeling hung up, smug or anything else particularly, apart from somewhat bemused by your long post saying literally nothing.