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Feminism: chat

White Feminism

598 replies

Brefugee · 22/08/2023 10:25

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

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Pocodaku · 26/08/2023 02:44

My issue with terms like ‘white feminism’ is that they centre American critical race theory, and end up uncritically and ahistorically imposing Anglo-American experiences/histories/lenses onto other contexts. There is a whole big world out there where women have had strong feminist movements against great odds, grass-roots as well as academic praxis.

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 03:15

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 01:43

Obviously not. Do you need help?

Black women are women because they are adult human females, the same as white women.

Take up your complaint with the lefty beardy men who say that if black women can be women then so can men who say they are women. They don't see black women as proper women.

We all have 'lived experience' and we all believe our perceptions are the truth. That's not enough to secure rights for any of us. Show me one single post on either of the feminist forums where a woman has relied solely on her 'lived experience' when asserting her rights.

Are lived experiences of women not how it all started?

You have no clue so I will no longer waste my time on you.

Codlingmoths · 26/08/2023 03:23

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 02:08

This thread was started in reference to a poster who said she had attended a WPUK conference and during a breakout session someone said something racist. She said she was the only black person in the room and she did not challenge it and neither did anyone else there.

Nobody told her to shut up.

Posters suggested that she start a new thread because she had posted on a thread about Stephanie Hayden who has harassed and litigated against many people including regular posters here, and including Mumsnet itself. It's an absolute landmark that those threads are still standing and it's important that they are not derailed.

Posters also said they would support this poster if she contacted WPUK about her experience.

What else do you expect FWR posters to do exactly?

Ah ok I take that back. I was thinking of a recent thread where shut up was most definitely said.

Codlingmoths · 26/08/2023 03:27

It is going way too far in the wrong direction to say lived experience doesn’t matter. Lived experience has been the trigger point for the investigating analysis and sheer work to find out most of what we do know. Sal Grover in australia describes her lived experience as a woman in (film? Media?) as why she released the giggle app for women only. There are a million other examples of people noticing /hearing /experiencing and thats the trigger, I agree people are weaponising an imaginary lived experience in this age where very moderate words are called literal violence, but that’s not an argument for lived experience should be dismissed.

Brefugee · 26/08/2023 10:12

Clymene · 26/08/2023 01:25

@SueVineer - fair challenge. The thread was started because a black woman posted about experiencing racism at a feminist event. The thread was about something completely different so a couple of people suggested she start a new thread. Before she could do so, another woman decided this was an example of White Feminism so created this thread.

It felt patronising to me to do that.

Yeah. Not what happened.

The black poster said she didn'T want to, and why should she?
And it is clear that posters here clearly don't understand (in many cases) Intersectional Feminism, Racism and what the term White Feminism (note the capital letters) actually mean.

Plus: As black women have said repeatedly, it is not up to them to educate white women about racism. Which makes it difficult to learn sometimes.

Having said that: I appreciate the serious replies here. It has been a bloody eye opener. And one comment has made me realise and reassess some of my opinions on some things. So that is good.

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Clymene · 26/08/2023 10:28

That's not my recollection at all @Brefugee - i don't think the poster said either way, I think you just jumped in with your interpretation of what happened but as the thread has now gone pouf, we can't check.

I didn't really want to go over it again but another poster asked me do I replied.

beastlyslumber · 26/08/2023 10:29

Great comments @PencilsInSpace Think you nailed it, really.

ReginaRegina · 26/08/2023 10:59

Not read the comments but absolutely guarantee they'll be full of passive aggressive posts lol.

'Punching up' is typically fine against men but most white feminists (well, certainly the ones on here) don't like reflecting on their own privilege when the shoe is on the other foot.

In reality, many white middle class feminists are second only in privilege to the straight white males they're married to. We hear all the chat about how privileged men are with their elevated salaries etc but it's naive to think that in most cases the wife doesn't benefit from her husband's huge earning potential.

I go to a fair few jobs at private schools and a lot of the mums turn up in new BMWs and Range Rovers etc. You think they're really paying for these on a part time salary?

Codlingmoths · 26/08/2023 11:12

ReginaRegina · 26/08/2023 10:59

Not read the comments but absolutely guarantee they'll be full of passive aggressive posts lol.

'Punching up' is typically fine against men but most white feminists (well, certainly the ones on here) don't like reflecting on their own privilege when the shoe is on the other foot.

In reality, many white middle class feminists are second only in privilege to the straight white males they're married to. We hear all the chat about how privileged men are with their elevated salaries etc but it's naive to think that in most cases the wife doesn't benefit from her husband's huge earning potential.

I go to a fair few jobs at private schools and a lot of the mums turn up in new BMWs and Range Rovers etc. You think they're really paying for these on a part time salary?

Well. I’m a white middle class feminist and I freely acknowledge I benefit from white privilege. And in my book that means I earn my own very good income from my own full time job and it’s half again what my dh earns. Assumptions much?? It’s naive to think women can’t earn their own incomes these days.

ReginaRegina · 26/08/2023 11:24

Codlingmoths · 26/08/2023 11:12

Well. I’m a white middle class feminist and I freely acknowledge I benefit from white privilege. And in my book that means I earn my own very good income from my own full time job and it’s half again what my dh earns. Assumptions much?? It’s naive to think women can’t earn their own incomes these days.

You think there's more non working men with school aged kids than there are women?

Brefugee · 26/08/2023 11:26

Clymene · 26/08/2023 10:28

That's not my recollection at all @Brefugee - i don't think the poster said either way, I think you just jumped in with your interpretation of what happened but as the thread has now gone pouf, we can't check.

I didn't really want to go over it again but another poster asked me do I replied.

My recollection is correct.
You can stop the PA shit. I got your message loud and clear.

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MsMarch · 26/08/2023 11:49

PencilsInSpace · 25/08/2023 23:41

There is a cultural conflict going on here which has less to do with race than it has to do with campaigning strategies.

I have used 'we' and 'us' here but this is just my personal impression of 'us' as a community (MN feminists/FWR/Sex & Gender topics) - others may disagree:

A lot of us here mistrust bald assertions of 'lived experience' because we have spent the past decade having men tell us, with menaces, that they have 'lived experience' of being a woman. Women here have been banned from platforms, lost their jobs, sometimes even been prosecuted for questioning the 'lived experience' of men who say they are women.

We ask for evidence because we are required to provide it. Fair enough, a lot of the things we are raising awareness of are so extreme that we would come across as insane if we produced no evidence (see the most recent example of the 'adult baby' man being allowed one-to-one access with children in special educational settings).

A big chunk of our activism has ended up being in litigation. Another big chunk has been giving evidence to inquiries, consultations, committees etc. or submitting FOIs and compiling reports. These strategies are proving highly effective (if slow) but they wouldn't work unless we had done the work of compiling copious amounts of evidence and being prepared to produce it. A huge amount of work goes on on FWR collecting and collating evidence. That's one of its greatest strengths.

Also we ask for evidence because we are constantly presented with claims, some of them extremely dangerous, that do not hold up to scrutiny.

'Trans kids will kill themselves unless their identity is affirmed'
'Puberty blockers are completely reversible'
'Trans women are no more violent than other women'

Also we ask for evidence to highlight dangerous claims that can have no evidence.

'Trans women are women'
'Men can give birth'
'Lesbians can have penises'

These are the kind of claims we are told we must not question because that would negate people's 'lived experience'. We are told that if we do not agree with these statements then we are denying trans people's right to exist. We are accused of genocide.

So it's fair to say that MN feminists, especially on FWR/S&G, are pretty keen on evidence and suspicious of claims of 'lived experience' which are not backed by any evidence.

We care about details and concrete examples because we are practical activists. We don't just want to know how awful things are, we want to know what we can do about it and the best way of doing that is to work out exactly what has gone wrong and how to put it right.

So for example, the way to remedy the racial disparity in maternity outcomes might not be to just shake our heads and bemoan systemic racism in the NHS but to work out exactly what has gone wrong for each woman and baby and collate and analyse those results to come up with practical, concrete recommendations, whether that's something highly contentious like rethinking the most punitive aspects of immigration policies, or mundane technical things like reassessing APGAR scoring or recalibrating oxymeters. It will be all of these and more and the only way of finding this out is to dig into the details.

Of course there will always still be racists, just as there will always still be misogynists. The trick is to route around them and address systemic dysfunction at the systemic level. Get the right laws, policies and guidance in place and insist they are adhered to and who cares what ugly thoughts someone has in their individual head? None of us can police that anyway, not even if we send them on a course.

My impression is that anti-racist campaigners on MN do not use these same strategies, that they view assertions of 'lived experience' as the most important kind of evidence and view requests for more concrete evidence as suspicious. I am unclear as to the exact aims of this movement beyond the generic 'end racism' or what the roadmap is of how to get there.

I will fight against systemic racism in any practical way I can but I will not waste a single second agonising over my supposed 'white fragility'. Neither will I automatically believe without evidence what anyone says about their 'lived experience' regardless of race or sex or any other characteristic.

I understand what you are saying here and a lot of it makes sense. Except you are skipping a few things. Asking black women to prove their lived experience has one key difference to the TWAW argument- they are black women. They are not needing to convince the world of something we all instinctively know not to be true.

Another key point is that absolutely yes, when it comes to advocacy and activism, we need examples and proof and studies as otherwise no one will listen. And then we need concrete things to advocate for to solve for those things. All true. but, first, before any of that, we need to accept there are problems, identify them, accept that they are based on race etc. When women started agitating for equal pay, the first step was that instinctive understanding that women were being paid less and that was due to sexisim. Then the work of quantifying started.

In the case of concerns from black and brown women, that's the step that "white feminism" misses out. It means that for a bunch of white feminists, they aren't interested in hearing about these issues or accepting they exist until AFTER someone else does all the work. And even then, theres a resistance to accepting they are because of racism. In many cases, even when they accept they exist, as things have started to improve for women overall, the view is "wait your turn". But black women's "turn" is ALWAYS after white women get theirs.

Codlingmoths · 26/08/2023 11:51

ReginaRegina · 26/08/2023 11:24

You think there's more non working men with school aged kids than there are women?

I think the ASSUMPTION the expensive cars are only due to the high earning husbands because of course the women only work part time is just finding a way to punch down on women. I said nothing about whether the husbands work part time. My kids and their friends will go to those schools.

Clymene · 26/08/2023 12:27

Wow @Brefugee. I was going to give you the benefit of the doubt too.

Clymene · 26/08/2023 12:32

@MsMarch

And even then, theres a resistance to accepting they are because of racism. In many cases, even when they accept they exist, as things have started to improve for women overall, the view is "wait your turn". But black women's "turn" is ALWAYS after white women get theirs.

Can you explain this 'wait your turn' thing please? I've seen it mentioned a couple of times on this thread and I don't really understand what it means.

Titerama · 26/08/2023 12:41

This thread is really something.

Using behaviours of trans activists to justify the disbelieving of black women.

It’s quite literally a demonstration of White Feminism in action.

Black women do NOT have to provide receipts when describing how they experience their lives.

Their No is every bit as valid as a white woman’s No.

The racism on this thread is shameful and I’m embarrassed for mn feminism that this is where we are.

Black women being told to “shut the fuck up” for talking about race in the context of another topic deemed so vastly more important.

Told to make another thread. Then told off for making another thread. Then told to move it to the chat board. Then pursued here to be told to provide evidence - but not that evidence, oh no, that’s not good enough…

O M G

Take a look at yourselves, defensive white women on this thread, and try to see the harm you’re doing.

Any time you actually want to try and understand, or do less harm, start with reading Reni Eddo-Lodge.

Titerama · 26/08/2023 12:47

Here’s a take-away from anti-racism education for you:

In the UK, for decades, to be considered a racist is socially more shaming than anything.

That shaming and demonising has led us to now, where the very whiff of being identified as having (even unintentionally) acted in a way that is racially harmful, provokes this extreme reflex to defend, deny, attack.

It’s DARVO in action.

Deny that your action or behaviour was racially harmful

Attack the person who identified your action as harmful

Reverse Victim and Offender to make you the victim, claiming harm and hurt, and putting responsibility for that onto the person who identified racial harm in your actions.

MsMarch · 26/08/2023 14:10

Clymene · 26/08/2023 12:32

@MsMarch

And even then, theres a resistance to accepting they are because of racism. In many cases, even when they accept they exist, as things have started to improve for women overall, the view is "wait your turn". But black women's "turn" is ALWAYS after white women get theirs.

Can you explain this 'wait your turn' thing please? I've seen it mentioned a couple of times on this thread and I don't really understand what it means.

I was tempted to say no becuase examples have been given on this thread. But, in the interests of trying to make people understand. And I want to state clearly upfront that if the examples are dismissed becuase the exact words, "wait your turn" are not necessarily always used, then that is part of the problem.

Examples could be the fact that when business and industry "improve" their diversity, it's almost always by including a single person of colour - usually a man - and a single woman - usually a white woman. So black women continue to never see themselves represented. But these firms will be met with congratulations for making progress, for changing things etc. The underlying message for women of colour continues to be, "wait your turn".

The maternity care example, that has been talked about on here a lot so should be obvious - we fight for better access to maternity care, for all women. Absolutely. But the concerns regarding the fact that while this better care is supposedly in place but doesn't necessarily actually run true for black and brown women is dismissed, treated as a different issue or "the next" issue. Why are we even congratulating ourselves on "improved maternity care" if it's only actually improved for a certain sub section of the population?

Clymene · 26/08/2023 14:33

Thank you for explaining that @MsMarch. I hadn't connected those examples with the expression

ReginaRegina · 26/08/2023 15:27

Titerama · 26/08/2023 12:41

This thread is really something.

Using behaviours of trans activists to justify the disbelieving of black women.

It’s quite literally a demonstration of White Feminism in action.

Black women do NOT have to provide receipts when describing how they experience their lives.

Their No is every bit as valid as a white woman’s No.

The racism on this thread is shameful and I’m embarrassed for mn feminism that this is where we are.

Black women being told to “shut the fuck up” for talking about race in the context of another topic deemed so vastly more important.

Told to make another thread. Then told off for making another thread. Then told to move it to the chat board. Then pursued here to be told to provide evidence - but not that evidence, oh no, that’s not good enough…

O M G

Take a look at yourselves, defensive white women on this thread, and try to see the harm you’re doing.

Any time you actually want to try and understand, or do less harm, start with reading Reni Eddo-Lodge.

Agree with much of this.

I mean, is there any topic that the posters on here won't turn into a bloody trans thread!

And it's not even remotely comparable. POC are a huge part of our society, the majority of under 20s in quite a few of our cities now. Transwomen are an extremely small demographic and, despite some worrying trends with big organisations/government etc, it doesn't really affect the vast majority of women in their daily lives.

Tbh, I often feel like the trans debate is the latest feminist frothing topic and for many it kind of becomes a bit obsessive, like it gives them an existential purpose. Most of us might think it's all a bit bonkers but we don't go about our lives terrified of a transwoman in the next cubicle.

I didn't read the original thread but it sounds a bit like the one below where a WOC was told by regular posters to 'fuck off' and called 'incoherent'. She wasn't even challenging white feminists. She said she was grateful they'd used their influence to open the door for WOC but thought they sometimes overstepped by speaking up on matters they didn't really understand - like how some Muslim women were accustomed to the burkha and were actually more comfortable not feeling exposed.

Threads about white feminism always go the same way with the usual culprits enraged at their victim status being challenged and becoming bullies.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3180396-Lets-Talk-about-White-Feminism

Let's Talk about White Feminism | Mumsnet

This is going to take a bit long but please bear with me. I feel like an intruder as I have actively been avoiding feminism and specially the white ki...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3180396-Lets-Talk-about-White-Feminism

Clymene · 26/08/2023 15:58

There's a lot of shit on that thread @ReginaRegina but it's a really interesting read for the most part. Thanks for linking to it. Can't see much of 'the usual suspects' becoming bullies - there are absolutely a couple of arseholes but no names I recognise.

Titerama · 26/08/2023 17:03

That thread was more horrifying than interesting, with regular FWR posters demonstrating White Feminism in all its harmful un-glory.

“I don’t recognise names” is a defensive reaction to put the blame for indisputably evidenced racism on these boards on to some vaguely un-known Others - anything so long as it’s not laid at the door of the current in-crowd of posters.

Ponderingwindow · 26/08/2023 17:20

Let’s look at something like maternal outcomes for black women. It is undisputed that they are worse. The question to solving the problem lies in figuring out why they are worse.

this is where data comes into play. How do outcomes compare across other medical experiences? Do we see the same racial disparity? Does it persist by sex or just race? Are there other correlated factors about the patients that come into play? We need all that information to know where the problem actual is. Is it provider bias, medical studies not including enough diversity, underlying community health issues correlated with poverty due to systemic racism? In order to advocate properly, we need to not just know that there is a problem, we need to understand why there is a problem.

feminism can advocate for more studies into the underlying causes of the maternal outcome problem, but the reality is that it may not be a primarily feminist issue. Yes, it seems like I am getting back to dividing up a person into component parts, but really I’m arguing for effective advocacy. If the problem turns out to be largely a problem of race or largely a problem of money (I know that one has already been discounted) then the most effective advocacy will put that issue at the forefront.

this really comes down to a general problem with modern advocacy. It has become driven by slogan and not driven by the data and by practical solution.

DojaPhat · 26/08/2023 17:35

Assumptions are really terrible in my opinion. Assumptions can often make things seem much worse than they are in reality. For example everytime a woman bemoans workplace sexism I always think but I've never once been asked to make the tea, take minutes of the meeting, nor has anyone ever commented how little maternity leave I took. It seems the women who post about these things are really making it difficult for the rest of us who can clearly see that workplace sexism is just a made-up term that gives women an easy way to opt-out of duties which everyone has do to at one time or another in the workplace.

Just like in Regina's post upthread, completely fails to grasp that many women earn and pay their own way without need to rely on their rich husbands. It's almost as though a disparity, or something akin to a pay gap, exists between the earning potential of men and women. I've worked all my adult life so there's no truth in that.

Clymene · 26/08/2023 17:35

Titerama · 26/08/2023 17:03

That thread was more horrifying than interesting, with regular FWR posters demonstrating White Feminism in all its harmful un-glory.

“I don’t recognise names” is a defensive reaction to put the blame for indisputably evidenced racism on these boards on to some vaguely un-known Others - anything so long as it’s not laid at the door of the current in-crowd of posters.

If you say so Smile

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