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Feminism: chat

White Feminism

598 replies

Brefugee · 22/08/2023 10:25

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

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Titerama · 24/08/2023 21:51

So much defensive white fragility on display in this thread.

Sadly not at all surprising to see demands for receipts, evidence, concrete examples and then picking them to pieces and denying all the way.

@DojaPhat has it right.

If you’re reading this thread, and feeling like white women are getting picked on, maligned or accused unfairly of racism, you really do need to read Reni Eddo-Lodge.

Or Nova Reid, Afua Hirsch and many others who write on this.

Seeing this unfold has reminded me again why I need to be a visible and persistent ally.

Rummikub · 24/08/2023 23:47

NewNameNigel · Today 11:13
BaronMunchausen · Today 09:34

Are NHS employees racist?
I don't know where your hospital is, but when I've attended hospital in London a good majority of the staff I saw weren't white.
My cousin almost died due to institutional racism in the nhs.
She has ab ectopic pregnancy and nearly bled to death because her internal bleeding was missed due to her lips not being blue - black people's lips do not go blue. She is only alive today because she was spotted leaving the hospital by a black doctor who noticed she had a grey tinge. Her stomach was filling up with blood.

This is not an isolated incident. Many black women have died. Whether or not the individual staff are racist is irrelevant.
......................:........

I have posted this before on a different thread to raise awareness. That the finger oximeters give inaccurate readings on black and brown skin. If NHS staff aren’t aware of this then it can lead to adverse issues. I have mentioned this a few times during hospital visits to raise this awareness.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220128/Pulse-oximeters-gives-false-readings-in-a-group-of-patients-of-Mixed-ethnicity-with-COVID-19.aspx

Pulse oximeters give false readings in a group of patients with COVID-19

The severity of COVID-19 pneumonia can be difficult to assess in people from different ethnic groups, due to inaccurate readings from a device that measures the level of oxygen in the blood of patients.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20220128/Pulse-oximeters-gives-false-readings-in-a-group-of-patients-of-Mixed-ethnicity-with-COVID-19.aspx

Codlingmoths · 24/08/2023 23:57

roarrfeckingroar · 24/08/2023 16:07

It's not arguing with a black woman, it's about saying these are equally offensive "to you". We all have our prisms and our priorities. For me it's radical feminism.

That “to you” is so dismissive.
It’s all on a par with ‘I can see you’re upset’ (but I’m not going to do anything about it) etc etc.
what you should be able to see is that generations of inequality where black people as a class are considered less than human are still playing out and it is a reasonable view for a black woman to say this is more defining to me, even if you don’t have that background and perspective yourself. I hope that helps, but I suspect it will bounce off a brick wall.

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 25/08/2023 18:02

I hate the term 'white feminism' as it implies a deliberate exclusion of black women and I could never believe that was ever true.

It is to the exclusion of the experiences of black women. Saying all women are treated the same is like saying that there is no racism in the world because all people are humans.

Or that a man who has studied feminism understands the issues women face.

Or me thinking I know the challenges autistic people face because my daughter is.

If it is not your lived experience you cannot understand. But yet, anyone who tried to explain there are different challenges for black women are told it's not true. Are painted as trouble makers who are trying to hamper the movement for speaking about how it affects them differently.

All women can only be supported if they are willing to accept we are not all dealing with the same things.

PurpleBugz · 25/08/2023 22:21

I just want to say thank you to all the non white women who contribute to education of others on racism. I've seen a few times that it very frustrating trying to engage and it shouldn't be your job to educate others. I just want you to know I do really gain sooooo much when I read threads like this. Reading a book is not the same for me as seeing it discussed by real people. Eg I thought I knew what institutional racism was particularly with police but then I see the medical examples in this thread and I've learnt again even when I'd tried to learn independently with research if not got it fully. And I acknowledge as I'm white I won't ever get it fully.

I once got pulled over by police in one of those random stop things they do. I didn't even fully stop the car before I was waved on they didn't speak to me or check my car. I was judged based solely on my appearance to not need checking for whatever they were checking for. That felt uncomfortable. If you randomly select cars to stop you should stop them regardless of what you think of the drivers likelihood of guilt.

Of course black women will have a different probability harder experience than me in many ways. But I think we are all women. To me I see it as black women have two 'inequalities' they are both black and women. I've definitely suffered discrimination because I'm autistic, I've been left with lasting problems because I wasn't listened to in hospital stating my symptoms because I don't present pain the same as NT people- this has happened multiple times. I e actually almost given birth in the corridor because they told me I wasn't in enough pain to be in labour. And I know non white autistic people have it worse than me being taken seriously by NT people that's a well documented phenomenon.

There are many inequalities. I feel I suffer a lot because I can tick off a few of the protected characteristics in the equality act and can give examples. But I've not suffered worse than those who experience racism it's not the same I've experienced different isms. I don't think we as women should let debates get derailed with topics that detract from our feminism. Because we need to be united to make progress against misogyny. But we need to acknowledge racism is very much a thing and is very much relevant to those who suffer it and those who don't suffer it should try to do better and learn just as we want men to do better and learn for the sake of women it's the same for white peoples we need to do better and learn to tackle racism.

And for me personally I get the best learning reading these threads so thank you so much.

PencilsInSpace · 25/08/2023 23:41

There is a cultural conflict going on here which has less to do with race than it has to do with campaigning strategies.

I have used 'we' and 'us' here but this is just my personal impression of 'us' as a community (MN feminists/FWR/Sex & Gender topics) - others may disagree:

A lot of us here mistrust bald assertions of 'lived experience' because we have spent the past decade having men tell us, with menaces, that they have 'lived experience' of being a woman. Women here have been banned from platforms, lost their jobs, sometimes even been prosecuted for questioning the 'lived experience' of men who say they are women.

We ask for evidence because we are required to provide it. Fair enough, a lot of the things we are raising awareness of are so extreme that we would come across as insane if we produced no evidence (see the most recent example of the 'adult baby' man being allowed one-to-one access with children in special educational settings).

A big chunk of our activism has ended up being in litigation. Another big chunk has been giving evidence to inquiries, consultations, committees etc. or submitting FOIs and compiling reports. These strategies are proving highly effective (if slow) but they wouldn't work unless we had done the work of compiling copious amounts of evidence and being prepared to produce it. A huge amount of work goes on on FWR collecting and collating evidence. That's one of its greatest strengths.

Also we ask for evidence because we are constantly presented with claims, some of them extremely dangerous, that do not hold up to scrutiny.

'Trans kids will kill themselves unless their identity is affirmed'
'Puberty blockers are completely reversible'
'Trans women are no more violent than other women'

Also we ask for evidence to highlight dangerous claims that can have no evidence.

'Trans women are women'
'Men can give birth'
'Lesbians can have penises'

These are the kind of claims we are told we must not question because that would negate people's 'lived experience'. We are told that if we do not agree with these statements then we are denying trans people's right to exist. We are accused of genocide.

So it's fair to say that MN feminists, especially on FWR/S&G, are pretty keen on evidence and suspicious of claims of 'lived experience' which are not backed by any evidence.

We care about details and concrete examples because we are practical activists. We don't just want to know how awful things are, we want to know what we can do about it and the best way of doing that is to work out exactly what has gone wrong and how to put it right.

So for example, the way to remedy the racial disparity in maternity outcomes might not be to just shake our heads and bemoan systemic racism in the NHS but to work out exactly what has gone wrong for each woman and baby and collate and analyse those results to come up with practical, concrete recommendations, whether that's something highly contentious like rethinking the most punitive aspects of immigration policies, or mundane technical things like reassessing APGAR scoring or recalibrating oxymeters. It will be all of these and more and the only way of finding this out is to dig into the details.

Of course there will always still be racists, just as there will always still be misogynists. The trick is to route around them and address systemic dysfunction at the systemic level. Get the right laws, policies and guidance in place and insist they are adhered to and who cares what ugly thoughts someone has in their individual head? None of us can police that anyway, not even if we send them on a course.

My impression is that anti-racist campaigners on MN do not use these same strategies, that they view assertions of 'lived experience' as the most important kind of evidence and view requests for more concrete evidence as suspicious. I am unclear as to the exact aims of this movement beyond the generic 'end racism' or what the roadmap is of how to get there.

I will fight against systemic racism in any practical way I can but I will not waste a single second agonising over my supposed 'white fragility'. Neither will I automatically believe without evidence what anyone says about their 'lived experience' regardless of race or sex or any other characteristic.

PencilsInSpace · 25/08/2023 23:41

CRT has produced a bunch of black people who are no longer talking to white people about race and a bunch of white people who switch off and stop listening as soon as their whiteness is held against them.

CRT has achieved nothing but racial discord. It's bullshit.

Clymene · 25/08/2023 23:57

@PencilsInSpace 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

Mummy08m · 26/08/2023 00:00

Well said, @PencilsInSpace . I agree especially about the details you mention in health care. We need people who will sit and muddle over details like recalibrating equipment and dosages etc - both for women vs men and for different ethnicities, as applicable. (I have had my own experience recently when my ethnicity was assumed to be different to what it is by a midwife, who put me in the wrong risk category for GD. Took me ages of phone calls and conversations to clear it up, all from an assumption from what I look like. It's that kind of thing.)

However, throwing one's hands up and shouting accusations like racism and refusing to talk to whole races of people is no way to get any of the above done. You've got to at least start by operating on the basis that most health professionals basically mean well but that there's work to be done, and there are better ways to start getting those things done.

Unfortunately lots of people don't like the hard, details-oriented work of improving things bit by bit. They prefer big, aggressive headline accusations and hyperbole.

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 00:55

Neither will I automatically believe without evidence what anyone says about their 'lived experience' regardless of race or sex or any other characteristic.

Lived experience IS the evidence!

Ever heard of studies which are based on lived experiences??

No wonder there is a separate space on here for BlackMumsnetters because there is no fairness on the main board.

SueVineer · 26/08/2023 01:02

Clymene · 22/08/2023 10:29

I think it's kind of ironic that a thread about white feminism has been started by a white woman.

Why? Would it be ironic to you if a thread about black feminism was started by a black woman?

SueVineer · 26/08/2023 01:04

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 00:55

Neither will I automatically believe without evidence what anyone says about their 'lived experience' regardless of race or sex or any other characteristic.

Lived experience IS the evidence!

Ever heard of studies which are based on lived experiences??

No wonder there is a separate space on here for BlackMumsnetters because there is no fairness on the main board.

What does that even mean? Lived experience of what?

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 01:06

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 00:55

Neither will I automatically believe without evidence what anyone says about their 'lived experience' regardless of race or sex or any other characteristic.

Lived experience IS the evidence!

Ever heard of studies which are based on lived experiences??

No wonder there is a separate space on here for BlackMumsnetters because there is no fairness on the main board.

If self-reported 'lived experience' WAS the evidence then men would be women if they said so.

Hard no.

SueVineer · 26/08/2023 01:07

Mummy08m · 26/08/2023 00:00

Well said, @PencilsInSpace . I agree especially about the details you mention in health care. We need people who will sit and muddle over details like recalibrating equipment and dosages etc - both for women vs men and for different ethnicities, as applicable. (I have had my own experience recently when my ethnicity was assumed to be different to what it is by a midwife, who put me in the wrong risk category for GD. Took me ages of phone calls and conversations to clear it up, all from an assumption from what I look like. It's that kind of thing.)

However, throwing one's hands up and shouting accusations like racism and refusing to talk to whole races of people is no way to get any of the above done. You've got to at least start by operating on the basis that most health professionals basically mean well but that there's work to be done, and there are better ways to start getting those things done.

Unfortunately lots of people don't like the hard, details-oriented work of improving things bit by bit. They prefer big, aggressive headline accusations and hyperbole.

There is very very little evidence that ethnicity can affect drug effectiveness and none that would allow us to calibrate drugs to different ethnic groups. It’s simply nonsense and not science.

SueVineer · 26/08/2023 01:14

Titerama · 24/08/2023 21:51

So much defensive white fragility on display in this thread.

Sadly not at all surprising to see demands for receipts, evidence, concrete examples and then picking them to pieces and denying all the way.

@DojaPhat has it right.

If you’re reading this thread, and feeling like white women are getting picked on, maligned or accused unfairly of racism, you really do need to read Reni Eddo-Lodge.

Or Nova Reid, Afua Hirsch and many others who write on this.

Seeing this unfold has reminded me again why I need to be a visible and persistent ally.

To be honest I don’t need to read any of that nonsense. I’m mixed race and not keen on racism towards white people or anyone else

Mummy08m · 26/08/2023 01:15

SueVineer · 26/08/2023 01:07

There is very very little evidence that ethnicity can affect drug effectiveness and none that would allow us to calibrate drugs to different ethnic groups. It’s simply nonsense and not science.

No, I was referring to dosages for women as opposed to men. Please read my sentence again. Women do need different dosages or sometimes different drugs entirely.

You're nitpicking a tiny detail of my post, that moreover you've misunderstood, rather than the overall message.

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 01:18

SueVineer · 26/08/2023 01:02

Why? Would it be ironic to you if a thread about black feminism was started by a black woman?

I agree with Clymene.

There is a difference between highlighting racism within mainstream feminism and calling mainstream feminism 'white feminism'

The former suggests a willingness to explore and resolve issues, the latter suggests dismissal of a movement on the spurious ground of skin colour.

I don't know if ironic is the right word but when white women beat themselves up over this I do wonder what good they think they are doing for black women or any women.

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 01:24

SueVineer · 26/08/2023 01:04

What does that even mean? Lived experience of what?

Lived experience of being a black woman

Clymene · 26/08/2023 01:25

@SueVineer - fair challenge. The thread was started because a black woman posted about experiencing racism at a feminist event. The thread was about something completely different so a couple of people suggested she start a new thread. Before she could do so, another woman decided this was an example of White Feminism so created this thread.

It felt patronising to me to do that.

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 01:26

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 01:06

If self-reported 'lived experience' WAS the evidence then men would be women if they said so.

Hard no.

So black women aren't women because they have different experiences because some men identify as women? Are you ok, do you need help?

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 01:31

Men don't have 'lived experience' of being women.

White women don't have 'lived experience' of being black women.

Black women have lived experience of being black women within the feminist movement.

It's really not that hard to understand.

Codlingmoths · 26/08/2023 01:36

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 01:18

I agree with Clymene.

There is a difference between highlighting racism within mainstream feminism and calling mainstream feminism 'white feminism'

The former suggests a willingness to explore and resolve issues, the latter suggests dismissal of a movement on the spurious ground of skin colour.

I don't know if ironic is the right word but when white women beat themselves up over this I do wonder what good they think they are doing for black women or any women.

I agree with this, but bear in mind I believe (I haven’t scrolled up to review) that this thread was started in reference to other threads where black women /woc have said hang on that’s not right/I don’t care, shut up black people. Now that is white feminism.

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 01:43

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 01:26

So black women aren't women because they have different experiences because some men identify as women? Are you ok, do you need help?

Obviously not. Do you need help?

Black women are women because they are adult human females, the same as white women.

Take up your complaint with the lefty beardy men who say that if black women can be women then so can men who say they are women. They don't see black women as proper women.

We all have 'lived experience' and we all believe our perceptions are the truth. That's not enough to secure rights for any of us. Show me one single post on either of the feminist forums where a woman has relied solely on her 'lived experience' when asserting her rights.

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 02:08

Codlingmoths · 26/08/2023 01:36

I agree with this, but bear in mind I believe (I haven’t scrolled up to review) that this thread was started in reference to other threads where black women /woc have said hang on that’s not right/I don’t care, shut up black people. Now that is white feminism.

This thread was started in reference to a poster who said she had attended a WPUK conference and during a breakout session someone said something racist. She said she was the only black person in the room and she did not challenge it and neither did anyone else there.

Nobody told her to shut up.

Posters suggested that she start a new thread because she had posted on a thread about Stephanie Hayden who has harassed and litigated against many people including regular posters here, and including Mumsnet itself. It's an absolute landmark that those threads are still standing and it's important that they are not derailed.

Posters also said they would support this poster if she contacted WPUK about her experience.

What else do you expect FWR posters to do exactly?

PencilsInSpace · 26/08/2023 02:11

AntiSocial6DaysAWeek · 26/08/2023 01:31

Men don't have 'lived experience' of being women.

White women don't have 'lived experience' of being black women.

Black women have lived experience of being black women within the feminist movement.

It's really not that hard to understand.

'lived experience' with zero evidence to back it up counts for nothing when attempting to secure our rights.

It's really not that hard to understand.