White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

@MsMarch
That's true

We ask what is white feminism, specifically?

Shouting over black women who are telling you that their experience is different. Becoming defensive when black women tell you that some things you so don't help them. Accusing them of being devisive when they talk about their own experience.

Then expecting black women to work you because we're alk women.

So the kind of stuff you've been doing on this thread when black and brown women have posted to say they feel included in feminism and think these kinds of identity politics are divisive? Got it.

I haven't actually. I only started posting a few posts ago.

Some black women might feel completely included. I don't think that means you can just ignore the ones that don't.

It's also not a binary thing. Someone could feel included some of the time and at others times feel their issues are ignored.

I think a thread titled Black Feminism on this board that encourages discussion between Black women would be more positive and informative than a White Feminists should stop talking thread.

what I find difficult is that women are already an oppressed group, and so they’ll always fight for their own kind. So yeah, as a white woman, I’ll fight for my own rights ahead of anyone else’s because I’m centring myself and too knackered to consider who else needs me to fight for them

im also struck that there is a huge lack of attack at men, and instead attacking women for not doing enough to stand up for other women’s rights

i just don’t see other minority / oppressed groups attacking other groups like it. It’s not cos we are women is it….?

So yeah, as a white woman, I’ll fight for my own rights ahead of anyone else’s because I’m centring myself and too knackered to consider who else needs me to fight for them

I appreciate your honesty here. I think a lot of white women feel this way.
I actually have no problem with you doing this but I do have an issue with white women doing this and pretending that they are helping all women.

i just don’t see other minority / oppressed groups attacking other groups like it.
Untrue. There is a lot of racism between black and Asian people. Different sects of Islam have rifts as well. I have also seen antisemitism from other oppressed groups.

I do have an issue with white women doing this and pretending that they are helping all women.

Yes - I agree. and being defensive when it's pointed out that they're not. We ALL campaign of things that are close to our heart. I think lack of education for girls in a variety of African and Middle Eastern countries is terrible, but I admit that I'm not out there campaigning and trying to personally solve the problem every day. But you can bet that I'm actively engaged on issues to do with STEM for girls in schools.

i just don’t see other minority / oppressed groups attacking other groups like it.
Untrue. There is a lot of racism between black and Asian people. Different sects of Islam have rifts as well. I have also seen antisemitism from other oppressed groups.

It's actually one of the many ways in which the Apartheid government maintained control in South Africa - by setting up different groups against each other instead of just whites vs everyone else.

Ms March, the historic manipulative control in South Africa you refer to does suggest (to me at least) that women of all skin tones/sexualities etc should pull together and focus on what unites rather than divides us. Anyway, I’ll bow out now. Best wishes all.

women of all skin tones/sexualities etc should pull together

I agree with this if the union benefits black women as well as white women. Black women giving up their time and energy to support work that mainly helps white women isn't an equal union if white women are prepared to do the same in return.

I do have an issue with white women doing this and pretending that they are helping all women.

Yes - I agree. and being defensive when it's pointed out that they're not. We ALL campaign of things that are close to our heart...But you can bet that I'm actively engaged on issues to do with STEM for girls in schools.

That's great that you are engaged on issues to do with STEM for girls in schools.

But aren't you just doing this and pretending you are helping all girls, the very thing that you said you have an issue with?

Umm, no? My post was specifically referencing the fact that I am NOT helping all girls, or in all situations. That was the entire point. I said that I am NOT actively campaigning for these other issues. but that not campaigning for them doesn't mean that I'm unaware of them or think they're unimportant or that I would have an issue with other people campaigning for them.

Throughout this thread I have not once tried to suggest that I am some magical feminist who is supportive of all and has all the answers. What I've tried to say, repeatedly, is that acknowledging that white women are not always fighting (or winning/losing) the same battles as women of colour is really important. And that we shouldn't be sitting back and thinking "it's all done" because the problem is solved for white women, nor should we be complaining when black women say that actually, this is still a problem for them.

BIt defensive.

Nope, not defensive. But genuinely surprised my message acknowledging that I choose to prioritise thing that matter to me personally somehow was taken by you to mean that I'm "pretending" to help all girls.

It's weird.

But the analogy @AlisonDonut draws is the very point of this thread.

Imagine how you'd feel if, after the hard work you do campaigning for STEM girls, you were accused of being humanities-exclusionary; it's your fault that humanities-graduates are paid less; you are directly benefiting from the under-pay of humanities graduates; moreover these transgressions of yours are attributable to an immutable characteristic you were born with. If you try and deny any of this, because you are merely trying to help, well you are shouting down the humanities girls and ignoring them and contributing to their inequality and anyway it's just what we'd expect from the likes of you with the aforesaid immutable characteristic.

But arguably, I AM humanities exclusionary. That's the whole point isn't it? Just like I'm NOT campaigning for all education for girls in the Middle East even though it's super important.

But when I'm campaigning for STEM, I'm not saying to someone who is campaigning for humanities, "oh my god, you have no idea - why are you doing that? Don't you see how much more important STEM is? Can't you accept that if we get all the STEM stuff sorted out, then actually, everyone will be fine."

That's the more likely analogy when people talk about "white feminism". The issue is that if a black woman chooses to focus on something else, her concerns are dismissed.

Gwenhwyfar · Yesterday 11:23
"Point being the girls in Rochdale for example they weren’t just treated badly by authorities because they are female. They were treated that way because they were also poor and seen as untrustworthy, more adult, chav etc"

The problem in Rochdale was also that people were afraid of being seen as racist for calling out a particular community.

i imagine that if the perpetrators were white men that the Rochdale victims still wouldn’t have been believed due to their perceived status (lack of).

But @MsMarch hasn't been insisting that girls in the middle east would be unreasonable for saying her feminism isn't helping them.
She hasn't said girls in the middle east would be being devisive bringing up that it doesn't help them.
And she hasn't said that girls she helps have loads on common with girls in the middle east so she's also helping them.

Or, another version would be if I campaign for STEM and girls and then we see that the numbers of girls doing STEM subjects has increased, but, on closer examination, it turns out that the number of WHITE girls has increased but the girls of colour are still as badly represented as ever. And if I then say to black woman, "oh, but come on, we've made so much progress, surely you can see that" and act like her concern about the fact that my campaigning has only helped white girls is somehow not relevant.

I don’t think you understand what a micro-aggression is, and in fact what you have just said there may be construed as one.

Oh come on now, this is disingenuous. Yes campaigning for UK girls to take up stem doesn't help girls in the middle East. But the accusations here go way beyond that: comments on this thread have claimed that "white feminists directly benefit from the oppression of black women", and directly blame them for it.

That's like the girls in Afghanistan blaming UK STEM campaigners for their lack of access to education rather than, you know, the Taliban.

That is a direct analogy to blaming "white feminism" for the maternity care race disparity.

What do your campaigns for girls in STEM consist of?

comments on this thread have claimed that "white feminists directly benefit from the oppression of black women", and directly blame them for it.

I'm pretty sure that this was covered extensively and the point was made that often the focus on white issues means other voices aren't necessarily heard with a few extreme examples of where white women might benefit at the expense of other women - eg when firms feel they can stop their diversity initiatives once 1 woman is on the board or where maternity care for black women is worse than for white. White women aren't to blame for the disparity, but it's entirely possible that campaigns to improve maternity care might not take black women's concerns into account.

Broadly though, the discussion has been around so-called "white feminism' and what it is and why women of colour might have an issue with it.

@AlisonDonut oooh, do I need to now justify what I care about, what I support, when I do it? And if I don't meet your standards of sufficiently proactive feminism then nothing I say is valid? haha. Nope. I will say I do less than I could and more than many others.

I just want to be clear that I don't blame feminists who happen to be white for all black oppression. I hope that was already clear but thought I'd state it as it keeps coming up.

I will say I do less than I could and more than many others.

Surely, surely you see how this statement applies to the "white feminists" you are tearing down.

I just can't see the point with this thread any more. I'm sure anyone silently following it, who is likely to be swayed either way, has read enough arguments on both sides now. The most reasonable and eloquent voices (I don't count myself among them, I wish I were) have largely bowed out.