White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

What's crazy about this is that it's really in no way controversial among black people, even in the US. I would say anecdotally that it's more common, if you take a broad age range, than the Kendi/Coates/don't-talk-to-white-people-about-race kind of perspective.

You get people on threads like this who take the other view, which is their right, but proclaim with a real sense of authority that CH's perspective here is universally known to e backward and racist.

I always get the sense that someone told them this in a university course, or reading one of these kinds of books, and they never thought to question it.

My sense is this is to a large extent the issue that is driving the increasing number of black Americans to abandon the progressive-left. So I find the pressure to tell people it's a completely outdated pov kind of suspicious, thh, a bit like the same tactic with tra stuff.

I do love how you keep ignoring the actual examples of harm. It must take a lot of effort.

Okay if there's one seat at a table and a ww is always given that in preference over a bw then yes that fulfils the criteria of ww benefiting from harm to bw.

But can you give me a concrete example of that happening? Because it seems to me that a) it'll be easier to find examples of bw given preference e.g. in education, employment etc. And b) more likely scenario is a man pretending to be a woman beats out both of us so neither of us are benefiting and we're better off working together.

This is a pointless race to the bottom, every time.

We ask what is white feminism, specifically?

We are told, find out for yourself because we don't owe you an explanation.

This sends us via Google to American websites which exclude feminists who think men have willies.

No progress is ever made.

I don't need to give concrete examples because you only need to spend 10 minutes looking at the make up of the board and senior management teams of any large organisation to see the endless ways that black women are NOT represented. And you'll probably say well maybe they're not qualified or maybe they're not putting themselves forward etc etc, but that's all part of the same issue which is that they're not getting the support they need to make it there and even when they ARE qualified, they're not then getting picked.

And that can be true at the same time as I can be furious that a man is taking the one seat that a woman has - heck, Philip Bunce was my "peak" moment when he won one of the spots in the FT's most influential women list.

And black women and white women should, of course, work together. But, whether we mean to or not, too often we take the same, "well, at least it's a woman in the seat, not a man" approach without being willing to consider the maybe we should be fighting harder for a black women or for enough seats for everyone. There can be multiple things to fight for, simultaneously.

The example you gave of black mums being treated worse in labour- which is absolutely statistically recognised, and is a tragedy - how is this the fault of white feminists?!

Is any white (or other race) feminist turning up to the hospital saying "please mistreat that black mum"??! No.

It absolutely is a problem in hospitals. And there are other problems where black women are mistreated. But these problems are not the fault of white women. On the contrary, women of all races have been flagging the maternity care race disparity for years.

You think white women manage the boards of the top global organisations?

The example you gave of black mums being treated worse in labour- which is absolutely statistically recognised, and is a tragedy - how is this the fault of white feminists?!

But no one said it's the fault of white feminists!? We said that it needs to be acknowledged that this is happening and that it's why we have to keep listening to voices that aren't white. And it's why "white feminism" annoys some people because it seems to downplay these issues or not fight for them.

I keep thinking about "Invisible Women". One of her points that she makes time and time again in that book is that this world that has been created for men, by men, wasn't done to specifically and purposefully harm women. But nonetheless, the harm has happened. We need to be aware of this instead of being defensive and dismissive.

Oh for pity's sake. Of course not. But the point is that those organisations tend to sit back and pat themselves on the back if they manage to get "diversity" by including one woman and one person of colour. That's it. That's "enough" or " a good first step" and so the point is that the very small number of individuals who represent diversity are going to be white women or men of colour and black women are not getting a look in.

I imagine that black executives and business people all over the country breathed a huge sigh of relief when Sharon White made it to the top of John Lewis. While also shaking their heads knowingly because she got that job at a time the company was in crisis - women tend to get those jobs at a higher proportion than any other senior job. Shock, horror.

We need to be aware of this instead of being defensive and dismissive.

Oh so we dont need to actually do anything then. Just shut up and listen. Cool.

OK I am glad you acknowledge this tragedy is not the fault of white feminists.

I'm back to my starting point of wondering what the point of the term "white feminism" is then (apart from a tool for making white women shut up).

Black women are also much more likely to br victims of domestic abuse and die at the hands of a partner

Mistreating black women, or women of any minority race, is not a feminist act. You simply can't label a tragedy like the maternity care race disparity with the label "feminism". I dispute it vehemently.

I have birth trauma myself and am what you might call "a woman of colour" (ugh) but I do NOT blame feminism, either as a political movement, or any individual feminists, for the experience I had.

Let's blame their abusers for this, and the policing/legal system (overwhelmingly male).

Not white feminists, of all people.

I think you got it in one. It just means, 'sit down and shut up.' But that's not racist or sexist against white women, because reasons [links to buzzfeed article about white women's tears, etc]

@Mummy08m
Actually I wouldn't even blame the police or legal system

Wow - what a thread!

I don’t think anyone that calls themselves a feminist is trying to benefit from black women being treated fairly. However…as people keep asking for concrete examples. If women come together to fight for their rights as they should collectively, if race is not considered at all:

• maternity provisions will improve as a whole but the mortality rates for black womenswear will remain higher than for white women because there is a tendency for agencies to dismiss or not believe their pain or symptoms.

• Treatment of mothers in general might improve but not for black mothers particularly because we encounter issues specific to our race. Not being listened to schools, our children more likely to be excluded. If our children are groomed they are often criminalised rather than seen as victims and we as mothers are once again not listened to.

• Prospects for women in the workplace may improve, more women in senior positions but this wont translate to black women because the barriers that stop them doing being seen or doing well are not the same as those for white women.

These are some of the many concrete examples of why feminism should be ACTIVELY anti racist for it to work for black women. Otherwise how can it? If white women don’t want to acknowledge how race or class impact other women that’s fine but to me it isn’t feminism because it does not advocate for all women, only a section of them.

Thank you. Much better articulated than I have been managing.

It might not be white women's fault, but we should be fighting these barriers alongside the barriers we personally experience.

We can be concerned about all sorts of forms of oppression and act against these but if we say that it is not legitimate for women to address sexism/the patriarchy without dealing with racism/homophobia/disabilism first, this is just another way of saying “women to the back of the queue, we’ll address your less important issues when the rest of the world is perfect”. That does not benefit women, including women of colour, IMO.

Exactly - just like, I wouldn’t consider myself working class but I definitely want to understand the struggles of working class women because their fight is also mine. As a feminist I am absolutely against the exploitation and abuse that is specific to the struggle of a working class woman so have to consider it.

But the OP mentioned that the person she was referencing was the only black person in the room.

That's like saying there aren't enough female scientists. It's not going to happen if women don't actively choose to study science.

BAME women should be better represented in feminism, but white women can't "appropriate the lived experiences" of BAME women by talking on behalf of them.

But do you think the lack of black female scientists just comes down to them not deciding to study science?

The problems and issues that define feminism aren’t that complicated, fair pay, quality healthcare, etc. As I have aged, I have gained the experience to realize that the solutions to those problems are actually quite complex. My initial naïve worldview did not take into account the experiences of women whose lives were vastly different than my own.

at the same time, I don’t support labels that I truly believe are just used to get women to be quiet. Everyone is allowed to speak. Everyone is allowed an opinion.

That's like saying there aren't enough female scientists. It's not going to happen if women don't actively choose to study science.

But we know there are institutional barriers for women to study science, and that these are in fact significantly more problematic for black women. It's all very well saying, "women must choose to study science more" but that doesn't take into account that even at primary school level, there's a whole set of socialised constructs that subtly reduce this as an option. By something like age 10, for example, girls have already absorbed the idea that they are less good at maths even if their actual maths performance is the same or better than their male peers.

@Loulou599 But I agree that it’s not a white woman’s job to advocate for black women who aren’t there.

I don’t think it’s that complicated, we just have to recognise that our experiences as women are different, acknowledge that and realise that the solutions to those problems might look different depending on race, class etc.