White Feminism

[Brefugee]

suggested from another thread, is this something we should talk about. At the risk of being accused of being a TAAT it isn't that.

But on another thread a black MNer said that at a conference she had experienced racist comments from a panel, and she was the only one who pointed it out. And had been the only black person in the room.

The reason i brought up White Feminism on that thread was that the poster was instantly dismissed as a potential derailing troll. Which is... well not sure if the person dismissing the poster is white or not, but it was pretty much the very same treatment. Immediately written off as insignificant.

I've seen comments on the FWR board before that White Feminism rears its ugly head a lot, and that black mumsnetters don't feel comfortable on the board.

I find that shocking. But I'm not black or of any other minority. I'm a white 2nd waver - and i hope that i don't make racist comments or dismiss black women's experiences. I do hope that if i did, they would point that out to me. (and I'd be sorry they have to do that work)

So - should we talk about this? I do think it causes rifts where we should have bridges.

💯

That's why it's important to discuss racism in feminism.

I have to agree that there's not much point to this thread any more. Because words and intentions keep getting put into my mouth that I haven't said and I honestly don't know how to be clearer.

I AM a white feminist. I'm not tearing down all white feminists.

I'm talking about the concept of "white feminism" which is a specific concern for women of colour who feel that SOME white feminists downplay or ignore their voices, their concerns or their unique challenges and mistakenly assume that being female should be enough to unite all feminists. And that when positive results happen for white women, that should be enough.

I honestly don’t understand why this has become so complicated:

The oppression of black women is not the direct fault of white feminists. No one is saying that white feminists should make race politics their priority, all they should do, to stand in solidarity with their black sisters is call out racism when they see it (just as I would expect my DH to call out sexism), believe them when they talk about their lived experiences and acknowledge that progress for them in certain areas (maternity, employment, parenting) may look different. That’s all.

The reason I think people get upset (including on this thread) is because the whole difference in how black women are treated differently with often fatal consequences, is because they are not believed or met with suspicion. As feminists, white feminists I guess it would just be nice if you could do better than this…we don’t need you to fight for us, we are perfectly capable of fighting. We’ve been doing it for time - we want to fight alongside you for the sex based rights that we both deserve, we just don’t want our words to be met with distrust or suspicion when we talk about issues that affect us because black women can’t separate them. I can’t be a woman without being black too so my treatment by the world is based on both. I don’t want white women to fight for me, just not to deny the importance of my fight both because they should be my sister (as a woman) and also because whether feminist or not, they are white and therefore make up half of the racially dominant group who I believe have a bit of a responsibility when it comes to stamping out racism.

Right but black people aren’t attacked for not standing up for the rights of Asian people though?

Are actually serious Black people don't systematically oppress Asian people.

However black people are often attacked for not just sitting and putting up with oppression because bringing it up makes white people feel uncomfortable.

I think the fact that there are poorer maternal outcomes is widely acknowledged, I've never seen anyone dispute it.

The more difficult question is always, why - what are the material causes of that. That's the case with any disparity noted about race or sex or anything else. It's a real, concrete thing, there is a real, concrete set of occurrences that lead to it. Unless you can begin to pin down the material basis of it, it's difficult to say much else. Certainly nothing useful.

In my experience, antiracism of the American type, that people have been posting articles about, actively resists that type of discussion, and tends to accuse anyone who tries of some kind of furtive racist motives. Iut I suspect the reason no one is going into the nitty gritty here is that it's a big topic that is not the topic of the thread.

I think concepts like "the patriarchy" or the "white hegemony" or similar immaterial dark forces that supposedly cause the opression of groups and individuals is part of the problem.

No one can fight them because they are a kind of abstraction, and often quite a sloppy one.

Problems faced by people have a cause, a real cause. Some are causes that can be addressed, some can't, others could but only at a cost such as unfairness to others, or something else that isn't worthwhile. Some disparities might not really be problems at all.

But it is not possible to make any kind of assessment about those things without understanding the set of causes that leads up to particular outcomes. And when we talk about something like dismantling the patriarchy, there really is no concrete action or analysis you can make. There is no policy or political action or even interior personal action available.

One material cause is that some migrant women are charged for NHS maternity care:

https://maternityaction.org.uk/campaigns/nhscharging/

This is a really good example. I am not a migrant woman but I would stand in solidarity with migrant women trying to fight this because I am a feminist.

The problem is that it’s difficult to separate out the health tourists who come here to use NHS services

Do you think some women are unworthy of good quality maternity care because of where they are born? That doesn't strike me as being very feminist.

Right, and that is a complicated issue, because it's not just about women or maternity care. It's about how the whole nation funds health care, who has access to it, how people who aren't citizens or otherwise permanent residents are meant to fund health care.

That's a complex problem with a lot of implications for all kinds of areas of society and political policy. Some might say, well, just give free health care to all. Others might say, those who come into the country, for example to work, need to be required to pay for some kind of health insurance that meets a certain standard. Both could be argued by reasonable people, as well as any number of other possibilities. One solution might be, just don't alow migrants in unless they are wealthy. But obviously that would have some other significant issues attached.

This isn't just on racial issues, it also applies to a lot of disparities in other areas, and it's not always going to be possible or even desirable to correct them fully.

I would too.

I think the NHS should be for patients who qualify for the treatment, harsh as it may sound the NHS wasn’t set up to provide free healthcare to the world.

Are you suggesting the NHS should put out an call for women from anywhere in the world to come avail themselves of the NHS's largess? Or maybe the NHS should send out care to those places?

If we are working on the premise that it is about what humans deserve as humans, that seems like it would be the implication.

Do you think this is only a feminist thing, or does it apply to men who are expected to pay for their NHS care?

In the end, everyone pays, citizens and permanent residents pay through their taxes. People who do not pay through their taxes, or are exempt for example because they are refugees, have to pay another way. To have a functioning system, you do actually need people to pay in, and the basic costs of care are only going up.

It's not useful feminism, white or otherwise, to try and hand-wave policy questions like that.

It's ridiculous to take the position that anybody, from anywhere in the world, should be given access to free health care funded by the UK taxpayer and that failure to do so is racist and sexist.

It’s an interesting conversation because maybe my views on other topics like immigration etc are linked to me being black. My mother was an immigrant to this country so I can’t separate it and feel ok that any women is left without adequate maternity provisions.

The link isn’t about people who are not living here already. It’s about women that are already in this country.

This isn't my position. Please read the link

Sunnydata · Today 21:49

The problem is that it’s difficult to separate out the health tourists who come here to use NHS services

Like the expats who return to the uk for treatment? Or those British citizens who emigrated to Australia / NZ but come back for free health care?

And they get away with it as they’ll have a historic NHS number plus a U.K. address from family and an English sounding name.

Absolutely, they should pay as well.

They go abroad to avoid payin* tax and then come here to take advantage of the facilities our tax has paid for

yes agree they should pay but due to other factors (English names etc) they can fly under the radar.

Whereas my mum with her strong foreign accent and non English name couldn’t do that.

OP, I wouldn’t quote Everyday Feminism as a reliable source. It’s part of that irritating ‘third wave’ that basically centres men rather than women. It backs transgenderism and uses all the insulting made-up vocabulary (eg ‘cis’ women) that undermines women as a sex class.