#tradwife

[HangingOver]

Behold!

www.instagram.com/reel/CosDY4RDOM7/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

I think I threw up in my mouth.

Let's assume, just for argument's sake, that it does.

So what?!

Personally, I'd rather a shit man also benefit from my right to an abortion than being pressured by society into having his child (and him being pressured into marrying me and "providing").

And I'm saying this as both a) someone who has had an abortion (he wasn't shit; we were just both in our early 20s and neither financially nor emotionally ready to be parents), and b) the daughter of parents who "had to" get married when my mum fell pregnant to my pretty useless father. It wasn't all sunshine and roses and "oh, he has to take responsibility". Not even close.

As it happens, a dear friend of mine (somewhat older than me) is the product of his mother deliberately "baby-trapping" his father. Yes, the man "took responsibility" and married the girl he had impregnated. My friend is in his 50s and I can't even begin to describe how messed up that man's emotions opposite both his parents are.

You are painfully naive if you assume that "in the good old days" if a man got a woman pregnant, she and the child would be looked after. None of this is how any of this works!

@Dacadactyl dammit I wrote a reply but accidentally closed the tab and it disappeared...

I was basically saying with more examples, that that would be true if it were the case that until feminism actually began to make differences in the world, men actually were obligated to women in the way you claim they were. But they demonstrably weren't. Even in early modern Europe, when protestantism was taking hold and the message was, have lots of children in your Christian household, men were still able to simply sleep with woman they liked and then buy them off her father.

I don't really think the "they had more accountability" argument stands up when it is completely self evident that men were never accountable to women. An upshot of them wanting a household with their lineage continued was still much more to do with the children than the woman.

I'm not actually saying that everything about feminist progress is 100% black and white good. I feel like there are genuinely compelling arguments about how, as you say, the sexual revolution served men a fair bit too. But what we always have to remember is before that, men still acted in pretty much exactly the same way: namely, sleeping with who they wanted to.

Feminism is also not just about interpersonal relationships between men and women. It addresses issues at a systemic level. Women who claim to think feminism is harmful almost always focus exclusively on gender roles. But feminism is also about the fact that most medical studies are done on men and boys so women centric healthcare is lacking, for example. There are numerous examples beyond gender roles and perceptions of things that negatively affect women due to society being skewed towards men as the default, the primary, the ones who matter. Feminism is simply the concept of seeing women as human beings of equal value in society.

I also deleted a sentence in one of my earlier posts where I did agree that while I 100% support the rights of women to choose what best suits them, i do agree that decisions are not made in a vaccuum. It doesn't mean though that we get to arbitrate what individual decisions harm feminism or not. Freedom of choice is still important, but it needs to be real freedom, and not, all the women in my family have stayed at home and had working husbands, type choice.

@Dacadactyl - abortion is a health issue and nothing more. No one should have anymore of an opinion on it than they do on appendectomies. I am going to guess you are religious based on you having marriage lessons, championing of “traditional” gender roles and your backwards views on abortion. It’s a shame you haven’t chosen a more progressive and informed denomination of your chosen belief system. In my opinion, your views are harmful to society. Restricting abortion leads to poor women dying, that’s all.

And, by the way: even if it had used to work this way (again: it did not!):

None of this logically implies "oh, now he feeds her and her baby, therefore: he the boss!"

This is just batshit insane!

It’s not my thing but I can’t see anything wrong with it. If anything it’s quite refreshing to see someone being enthusiastic and passionate about being a homemaker when almost every single narrative bandied about today on the subject is wholly negative in one way or another. Looking back, when I had DD in 2013 it was shoved down my throat everywhere that it was so hard and miserable to be at home, all those unmumsy mum blogs and jokes about wine.. honestly I think I’d have enjoyed myself a bit more if I’d partaken in a spot of 1950s role play!

As I said, nothing will change my mind on the issue and it is irrelevant to this thread anyway.

I was responding to a poster who asked why I thought feminism was harmful and I told them. The fact that someone else (everyone else?) disagrees with me is neither here nor there.

I will leave you so that you can get back to the thread which is about someone being a "tradwife", not abortion.

@Dacadactyl it's not just that we disagree with you, but your argument isn't coherent, you don't seem to understand feminism at all, what you're attributing it to makes no sense.

Unfortunately this is often what I see from women who say they "don't agree" with feminism. 2 arguments I've heard of the top of my head:

• "I'm not a feminist because I believe men and women are different" (well, yeah, no shit )
• "I'm not a feminist because feminism tells women they have to be "masculine" and career oriented

It is sad that the only arguments these women have against feminism is based on complete caricatures and misrepresentations of feminism.

It's so weird to see happy women with husbands and children talk like literal red pilled incels.

Colleague C's wife has a perfectly normal, nowhere nearly as highly paid as his, FT job. Their kids are teens. She does more of the housework, he contributes more to the bills. I might not agree, but it's their arrangement.

Does Wife C work part time? If she does, why shouldn't she do more of the house work?

I consider myself a feminist but don’t think any of what she said was particularly OTT.

The taking her dh along to the gym with her maybe - however as a younger woman I was constantly harassed at the gym and would’ve probably considered taking my dh along if I’d had one!

I think the sickly voice made it seem a bit more nauseating.

I watched the Stacey Dooley Trad Wife episode noted a few pages back and expected to spend the whole time arguing with the women but I actually couldn't. What came across to me was a group of women, who had sucessful careers and then got married and had children and tried to 'have it all' like we're told we should and realised it doesn't work. So when it came to it, they chose family. Becoming a trad wife isn't my cup of tea but I think it highlights issues with a capitalist set up where we are all pushed to work for society and earn as much money as we can, whether we are happy or not and this is their way of going against that. If that works for their family, great and I commend them on getting off the 9-5 wagon and focusing on what they believe is important. I don't think it is a threat to feminism.

Well it is if they are arguing that they should also be subservient and servile as a result. Or that it is natural for all women to take that role or that it is better for (all) women to do the same...

You never hear about men struggling to try to have it all though do you? So it’s more than just a capitalist issue.

@ChilliBandit

Was just about to say the same.

I have it all.

The paragraph you posted literally says that the wife “has a perfectly normal […] FT job”

@TuesdayJulyNever yes absolutely. When we got married, my grandparents gave us advice including:
'At least once a day say something kind or complimentary to your life's partner'
'If one of you has to win an argument let it be your mate'
My grandmother would never have made a significant purchase without consulting my grandad- but he would equally have discussed those things with her. They were married for sixty happy years x

It can be read as his FT job. It's not clear.

The use of commas in that way means it can only refer to her job being FT. It would make no sense that it would be his.

Apparently! There were photos of her in her traditional kitchen with all her old stuff in the local newspaper 🤷‍♀️

But all husbands are men. And one of them is your husband specifically because he is a man.

If you think wives are subservient to husbands you do think we are subservient to men. Not all men, all the time, but only to a man. And because he is a man.

It’s funny how there isn’t a comparable men’s movement promoting ideas of being a good and loyal husband and giving yourself over to the life goal of keeping your wife happy.

There was around twenty years ago…think they called themselves the “Promise Keepers”. There was a heavy religious element in it though and keeping the wife happy was viewed like keeping your children happy. The man was still head of the family.

👏👏
Well put. It’s funny how those that argue not all choices are equal in terms of feminism rank choices by traditional patriarchal measures….

Of course, tradwife is anti-feminist.

It’s a lot more than equitable division of labour where one parent is the SAHP.

Feminism isn’t a quasi-capitalist consumer choice movement.

Though this is a common simplistic bastardisation of feminism often presented by people wanting to argue against feminists who are actually presenting a feminist analysis.

Feminism has an analysis of how the ‘choices’ women make are culturally influenced in ways that disadvantage women. It has an analysis of how the patterns of social behaviour, and law, and cultural attitudes disadvantage women.

Just as civil rights movements for people of colour are not advocates for PoC to act out fantasies of being dominated by whites people, (as part of a full-choice equal opportunities movement), so feminism does not advocate for women to act out fantasizes of subordination to men.

Instead of these trad wives movements I’d like to see a movement telling women thinking of embarking on being a SAHP how to set up legal agreements to ensure their financial protection in a divorce. And no, a marriage certificate is not sufficient for many.

abortion harms women and society.
Contraception and abortion for when contraception fails plus the reproductive rights for women to use these are the reasons why the planet will not end up being destroyed by overpopulation.

If you look at the past (and I am by no means whatsoever saying it was a utopia) if a man got you pregnant, he was expected to provide for you

This has just never existed. What do you think the ‘mother and baby homes’ and Magdalen laundries were all about? There was a text thousands of years old on the radio the other day, a letter written by a young women got pregnant and then left high and dry. This golden age you speak of never existed.
And finding yourself trapped in a marriage is an awful fate, as you acknowledge here:

And also, women in crap relationships are putting up with having to work FT, look after the kids, do all the housework etc as we see so often on here
The pressure on women in this way has not been caused by feminists. Feminists has an analysis and criticism of the Biden of housework and childcare falling on women. You see true ‘everyday’ feminism on theses boards literally everyday, where women share this feminist analysis and encourage other women not to tolerate this inequity.
Nor are high housing costs and living costs the fault of feminism, blame successive governments for their successive policy failures, such as in housing, for this.
finally, many thing have increased the burden of parenthood. fears of cars and strangers meaning kids no longer play unsupervised in their locality, and the commercialization of play, means parents, usually mothers, now organize and supervise children out of school in a way previous generations never had to. Again, feminism never caused this.