Rich men using a surrogate - miscarriage

[BlueThomas]

I read an article about two Made in Chelsea stars using a surrogate who sadly had a miscarriage. If just really doesn’t sit well with me. From the article

Obviously we’re in a very fortunate position, we can go again. But you know it’s not, it’s not easy

im sorry but a woman out there somewhere is undergoing a miscarriage. That is what is not easy no mention of her at all in the article or how sorry they are for what she is going through. It’s all about them.

also doesn’t sit well describing themselves as fortunate they can go again. What about the women putting themselves through ivf and miscarriages for these men - how many times will they put women through this?

www.her.ie/celeb/made-chelsea-stars-ollie-gareth-locke-reveal-surrogate-miscarriage-569977

There are ways to claim expenses which can go into the tens of thousands. You won’t ever find a rich surrogate. That’s the truth of it.

I oppose surrogacy for all the reasons already stated on this thread - impact and risk to mother and baby both. I more than understand the pain of infertility and why people may be desperate enough not to examine these issues with a gimlet eye. Sadly I was unable to have children myself and a friend of mine offered to be a surrogate for me, I was touched by her offer but said absolutely not. Nobody is entitled to a baby or to put others at risk for their want for a child, no matter how agonising that might be.

@SaraSS

With the 'being kind' that was more aimed at comments that were not well put, feeling somewhat like shaming those with a different perspective.

Thank you for explaining that and of course that goes both ways. Thank you for your kind words, I hope the links I have shared prove to be useful.

I have been called religious zealot due to my anti-surrogacy views (and in part due to my username, though as an atheist my accusers couldn't be more wrong), I have been assumed to be pro-choice and against women having body autonomy (again, I've had an abortion and so again they couldn't be more wrong), I have also been called homophobic but I can assure anyone reading here that I am against surrogacy in equal terms for opposite sex couples and same sex couples and indeed for single people, including those who do 'social surrogacy' (generally women who don't want to trouble their own bodies with the strains and damage caused by pregnancy and labour but who are more than happy to pass on such troubles to 'lesser' women for an agreed fee, where you can guess who has the balance of power there, see Khloe Kardashian's disbelief of her 'surrogate' having a legal right to change her mind).

I'm truly fascinated by the reasons a woman does this as I'm not convinced it's all about helping or being generous and kind, this helped me understand that more and personally I think it's an under-explored area of social science, which if studied, could be quite revealing.

This sort of compliments my earlier point about the media narrative too...

stopsurrogacynowuk.org/2021/05/31/surrogacy-in-the-media-a-review-of-bbc-threes-the-surrogates-long-read/

I believe that Ollie and Gareth are using the same surrogate on an ongoing basis because they refer to her as a friend and relay their conversations with her on the programme. Which would mean that she has had several miscarriages now, with little mention made of her health, feelings or role in the whole drama. They have rented a woman's body and are monetising the process further by making it a storyline on a reality TV show.

It’s nothing to do with privacy. It’s about actually caring for this woman which from their statement there is no indication. They said ‘we are having a miscarriage’ when they aren’t. They should have said, unfortunately our surrogate is having a miscarriage and she is foremost in our thoughts while she goes through the painful experience of miscarrying our baby. We are devastated at the loss of our child.

They didn’t say “we are having a miscarriage” at all? at least not in the link you provided?

www.her.ie/celeb/made-chelsea-stars-ollie-gareth-locke-reveal-surrogate-miscarriage-569977

So, you are tone policing how they should announce a loss? Why? What makes you think you know their close friend who is being the surrogate mother for them better than they do? Do you really think she wasn’t part of drafting the comments they did decide to release?

@Onnabugeisha so she is apparently perfectly happy for them to talk about how she (anonymous woman) is their surrogate and that she is miscarrying and that she is a close friend but draws the line at any kind of concern for her well-being being mentioned by them? 🙄

I think they’re respecting her privacy to be honest. They know how she is so what’s the point of saying “foremost in our thoughts” and “goes through the painful experience of miscarrying” in an article and so on when they are in regular communication? She knows they’re thinking of her. And the miscarriage is over and done with…she’s not going through it anymore? So why say a platitude to a reporter to publish like she is some stranger? She’s a close friend…it’s not appropriate to be like “thoughts and prayers” in an article imho.

I don't know about you but I don't find 'close friends' on Instagram..

www.thesun.co.uk/tv/18241226/surrogater-miscarriages-made-in-chelsea-ollie/

"Our surrogate is from England. This one was too, but last time it was a Brazilian egg donor – it’s all very difficult. The egg donor is separate."

So far, a vague count totals 3 women:

1 woman for the pregnancy, attempts at which has resulted in one failed transfer and one miscarriage (at least) and two women for the egg donations, one woman was Brazilian and one other woman as the egg of Brazilian was "last time".

Maybe miscarriage brings you closer even when you're not in a relationship with the woman who is pregnant but forgive me if I'm sceptical of making 'close friends' via social media for the sole purpose of creating a new human being. It's not something I look for in a friend, however close we may be.

I'm always torn on the issue of surrogacy. I've got a friend who was a surrogate for a same sex couple. On the one hand I think she did a lovely lovely thing for them. Luckily she had a very easy pregnancy and labour.
But her MH afterwards was awful. Truly awful. She didn't admit it at the time, but now looking back agrees that it was awful.
And while surrogates can technically only claim expenses, she went from being a single mum claiming top ups and struggling to make ends meet to redecorating her entire house including all new flooring and furniture.

My own DS has said that he'd like to have DC one day but that as a gay man would probably use a surrogate. I did mention that there are ethical considerations that I hope he'll look into when the time comes.

@Coooosd @2022again

The situation in Ukraine is appalling.

This international agency which has offices in the U.K. is breaking U.K. law re advertising and commissioning of surrogate mothers.

Regarding Ukraine and the birth of babies with disabilities they were advising that they can just be left in orphanages. There is a Ukrainian academic who I have seen on webinars a couple of times who states that a massive percentage of babies in orphanages are abandoned surrogate born babies. My jaw dropped at the percentage she quoted, it seemed unbelievable so I'm not repeating it and yet reading this I think she must be right. She also fumed at the expense to the state of keeping these babies in orphanages - they will likely be in care all their lives.

I oppose all surrogacy but why anyone thinks surrogacy tourism is acceptable is beyond me. It should be criminalised and people who bring a baby home from abroad should be prosecuted for people trafficking. But thanks to the European Court of human rights those countries which ban surrogacy and try to take a stand on imported babies are forced to consider the baby's human rights to citizenship. (I don't dispute that babies, once they are in existence need their human rights respecting but then they shouldn't be removed from their birth mothers and transported around the world with a price tag on their heads). If people knew the price of their imported baby was a criminal record then they would stop doing it.

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/18/global-surrogacy-agency-accused-of-putting-women-at-risk-with-unethical-medical-procedures

@justgettingthroughtheday

I am very sorry you have serious illness, especially if NHS treatment - or lack of - have contributed to late diagnosis and the position you find yourself in facing cancer and hysterectomy as part of that treatment.

I say this with all sympathy and I hope you won't feel patronised.

You are angry - those feelings are natural when life deals you a shit hand, especially if medical fault is a part of the problem. It is also natural to displace that anger and ignore your fears by trying to focus on something else, perhaps something that offers hope for the future and the chance of the life you thought you would have.

But at the moment, facing major surgery and possibly more treatment after that, you really need to focus on your health and your mental health. There are lots of cancer charities such as Macmillan that can advise or offer counselling if your hospital won't provide this.

Now is really not the time to be pursuing your dream of motherhood. The reality of this might include upsets if your friend who is your surrogate mother has a miscarriage or fails to get pregnant or other complications. Your rage will put unreasonable pressure on her.
And if you do have a baby, you need to be in good health to make the most of motherhood and care for your baby. Not stressing about childcare while you attend hospital appointments and feeling too rubbish to get up in the night to feed the baby.

No one would be allowed to adopt in this situation and I really think the same reasons apply to having a baby through surrogacy.

You might think it a poor comparison but we got our last dog as a sixteen week old puppy, the reason being she had been returned to her breeder at 14 weeks. The son of the people who had bought her at 8 weeks was diagnosed with cancer soon after and they suddenly found themselves spending days driving up to the Royal Marsden frequently and caring for a poorly child. It wasn't the time to have a puppy and they did the right thing by her, letting her be rehomed to someone who had the time to devote to her.

Exactly the same principle applies to the baby you hope to have.

I really hope your operation and future treatment goes well for you. Please just focus on yourself for the time being.

@OhHolyJesus @FannyCann thank you for those article links, incredibly sad to read. I think there's a point at which people thinking they have the "right" to a child can progress to thinking they have the "right" to reject that child if the child isn't perfectly healthy, solely because they have the means to pay for one via surrogacy. I can't appreciate the depth of feeling a woman unable to conceive or carry a child has (or a gay man who wants a biological family) but ultimately it's the child that's at the centre of this that we need to put first followed by the surrogate herself and the impact of pregnancy health issues on perhaps her own children. Women's bodies have been monetised throughout history and the societal costs always need to be examined even when people may have good reason to undertake surrogacy.

Omg I fell down a dark hole last night on Instagram I think it was #twogaydads and honestly there are literally thousands. I have no objection to two dads and it was obvious looking at the many profiles that these children are loved to pieces. The ones that made my heart sing most though were the ones were it was obvious the child wasn’t either on the couple’s genetically. Those foster stories were amazing and heart warming. Far far easier in America by the looks of it. The whole page was supported by an international surrogacy company. They have regular conferences it’s obviously huge business. I thank god it’s not on that level over here.

@EachandEveryone yes rhe commercialised nature of surrogacy and infant adoption in the US is really disturbing. I’m hoping it doesn’t go this way over here. It’s why I don’t like some of the proposed changes being requested by some intended parents (to have right pre birth etc).

I get what you're saying, yes it's easy for them to say they can "go again", it's not them who has to go through it, is it?!
The way I see it though is do women have their own minds or not?
I mean, I've had kids, I couldn't imagine giving them up. I know I'm not everyone though. People have different experiences.
All this "women don't make decisions in a vacuum" bollox that is no doubt going to follow my comment - either we're individuals with minds of our own or we're not.
I'm for making own choice. Always have been.

@EachandEveryone I did a bit of a dive into #surrogacygonewrong
On Tiktok. Common themes seemed to be not about disastrous outcomes, but surrogate mothers feeling disrespected, not cared for or appreciated, lied to by commissioning parents. In short, being used as gestators. One woman posted from the hospital, distraught, as she had attended at 38/40 with reduced fetal movements and the hospital advised immediate admission for LSCS, but when she let the commissioning parents know they were furious as it would mean them missing the birth and they wanted her to self discharge against medical advice to wait for them whenever it was they thought they might get there. Not surprisingly her blood pressure then started causing concerns.
These were mostly/all American women, who understand the commercial nature of what they are doing and the contracts but have been sold the "selfless Angel giving the the gift of life" lie and expect to be treated accordingly. Or at least with basic good manners and humanity.

@FannyCann did you come across the surrogate who still has twin babies (well they’re like 2 now) because the Chinese intended parents never came to collect them. They’re part of her family now and she intends to keep them but obviously it wasn’t what she had planned. Also the intended Chinese parents were in their 60s which I find ridiculous.

Yes, I've been following her story Whowhat though I had missed that the CPs were in their 60's.
I hope to goodness that she gets to keep them though legal arguments seem to be ongoing and I assume it will end up in court.

Here's another one, the SM kept the baby for eight months due to covid. No one knows how many covid babies were cared for in a range of settings before being claimed several months later, one baby returned to the U.K. at age 1year+ and I suspect there we're probably quite a few in places like Ukraine that were never claimed.

vm.tiktok.com/ZMFvYavwJ/

*were

Another sad case, yet the commissioning parents will be the ones getting sympathy for their loss. As per the topic of this thread.

Its clear that you're very angry but what's wrong with it is bluntly you're being selfish. You want a baby and so you're buying/procuring one. You have no thought for the effect on the child, your posts are only about you and what you want.

@FannyCann yes I suspect a lot of babies born around covid were left. That’s the issue isn’t it when life is treated as a commodity.

‘get him out’ is yet another disturbing surrogacy TikTok account.

And the war. I came accross someone who had three embryos plated on three different women at the same time and the babies were born within two weeks of each other. They weren’t particularly wealthy either. I expect the grandparents paid.

Surrogacy is baby trafficking