Rich men using a surrogate - miscarriage

[BlueThomas]

I read an article about two Made in Chelsea stars using a surrogate who sadly had a miscarriage. If just really doesn’t sit well with me. From the article

Obviously we’re in a very fortunate position, we can go again. But you know it’s not, it’s not easy

im sorry but a woman out there somewhere is undergoing a miscarriage. That is what is not easy no mention of her at all in the article or how sorry they are for what she is going through. It’s all about them.

also doesn’t sit well describing themselves as fortunate they can go again. What about the women putting themselves through ivf and miscarriages for these men - how many times will they put women through this?

www.her.ie/celeb/made-chelsea-stars-ollie-gareth-locke-reveal-surrogate-miscarriage-569977

Wishing you all the luck.

My sister lost many babies with an incompetent cervix. Would you all pile shame on her if she had used a surrogate?

Babies need love, not a ‘WOMAN’

And I say this as a woman (yes born a woman before everyone gets excited that I am trans) with a child.

However, for those very against taking the baby away from surrogate, how’s that different from adoption

Because there's a difference between a child being (typically) taken away from a dangerous living situation/neglect/abusive situation/unfit parenting where social services have tried to keep the child with the mother and usually do everything they can to keep the child within the family and renting out a woman's womb with the intention of taking that newborn away as soon as it's born

I've never heard of either of them before reading the article, but why on earth have they double barrelled their surnames?

I think surrogacy is wrong, it’s unethical and should be banned globally. Many countries have already banned it.

I hate this celeb culture that seems to be normalising it, the Kardashians, Rebel Wilson, Priyanka Chopra and co. Rent a womb and purchasing children like they’re a new car. Sickening.

Because women's bodies aren't commodities and taking a newborn away from the only mother it's ever known and giving it to a stranger is wrong and cruel to the newborn

There might be another living being in this scenario that you're forgetting about? It's not all about what adults want.

It can go smoothly. Then again, it can go badly wrong. Especially when international arrangements are concerned - although that's more on the extreme end.

In adoption, the child has already been conceived or born. The child needs to be taken care of so it is about finding the best outcome. Surrogacy actually creates a baby with the intention of taking that baby away from their mother. It’s extremely unethical.

So-called 'altruistic' surrogacy is the thin end of the wedge of commercial surrogacy. You can justify anything if you want something badly enough. If no money changes hands then for me it's still important to consider the other forms of coercion or reasons as to why a woman engages with surrogacy. (For the same sex couple mentioned in the OP it's clear as to why they are going down this route, although adoption has long been available to same sex couples in the U.K.)

For 'evidence' of children effected by being surrogate born I would direct you to studies on genealogical bewilderment, which impacts donor conceived children (and adopted children) born via surrogacy and Jessica Kearns who is surrogate-born and has struggled with it and has been able to speak on this as an adult.

Studies by Susan Golumbok are useful to an extent but the children studied are not yet old enough to be considering starting families themselves and when you are raised and frequently told how much you were wanted etc it might not be that easy to voice your feelings about genealogical bewilderment and wanting to know the woman who gave birth to you.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21895360/

Many adults who experience genealogical bewilderment as a child, or as an adult, struggle to speak or explore this, sometimes it's not possible to do so until their parents have passed away. It's very complex and in my view, shouldn't be dismissed. It can become very central to how you feel about yourself and can be emotionally damaging and difficult to come to terms with.

If you knew you were born to a poor woman in Ukraine during the war and grew up in let's say, Ireland, would it be normal and natural to wonder about her and what sort of life she had and what she felt during the time she was pregnant with you? How would it feel if you knew that you were born because someone paid (even just 'expenses') a woman to have you?

Adoption always centres the child, surrogacy - all surrogacy - centres the adults.

I too saw this article and was shocked they didn’t mention the woman going through the miscarriage. Are we really at the point where womb-renters don’t even keep up a pretence of caring about the woman?

Miscarriages can cause all sorts of complications, affect her future fertility, and 1/6 women get PTSD from their miscarriage. But these men don’t even pretend to care. How many more women will they put through it?

To respond to your post:

www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-20/ukraines-commercial-surrogacy-industry-leaves-disaster/11417388

And

I actually read this a few days ago about disabled children in Ukraine. It's so upsetting

I used to think I was okay with altruistic surrogacy. My much younger DSis theoretically offered to carry a baby for me a few years ago if I wanted to have another but couldn't. However, she since had a difficult birth with her own child causing an ongoing health problem. I couldn't live with myself if a friend or family member suffered injury or illness as a result of giving me a baby. So now I am uncomfortable with the idea of even altruistic surrogacy. It's different to giving a family member a kidney to save their life.

@justgettingthroughtheday
I'm not sure if you will see this message, but if you do, please know that not everyone shares the opinions of these nasty comments.
I haven't read them all, but some are just cruel.
Your situation is one I wouldn't wish on anyone and your decisions about surrogacy are yours and your suggogates. So long as they know the risks and make an informed decision, that's what matters.

For surrogates - To carry a baby for someone else must be one of the most selfless things someone can do, I admire that.

For people in your situation - if you have a route to having a baby that involves fully consensual adults, then why the heck not.

People saying it should be illegal - another form of control over women's bodies?! Really? Everyone should be able to make their own decisions, including surrogates!

Yes it needs to be regulated and monitored. But for those who want surrogates and those that want to be surrogates, why should someone who has nothing to do with that situation hold any right to their decision?

Absolute madness.

FYI I'm not a surrogate, nor in search of one. I have fertility issues and have an idea of the level of emotion that comes with that.

Adoption is a last resort or the least worst option to take a newborn from its birth mother for its own benefit.
Surrogacy is the intention of taking a newborn from its birth mother for the benefit of the commissioning parents.

You only have to watch an episode of long lost families to see the emotional and psychological effects of a baby being removed at birth even when they've been much wanted, loved and nurtured by their adoptive families.

A lot of celebrities seem to be pro surrogacy....but funnily enough you don't see any offering to be a surrogate....? (Male same sex couples obviously excluded) The Kardashians must have loads of female friends including their sisters who are fertile and of childbearing age....

@SaraSS I notice you left the baby out of your post

@IVFGotThis05 Just as adoption, you would be the mother. Yes, not biological as you say but still a mother

yes a adopted child has both a mother who raises the child and a biological mother. In surrogacy the biological mother is erased. She is ‘not the mother’ she ‘just gestated’ the baby or she ‘just carried’ the baby. You can erase the mother who grew and birthed the child in this way much as those in favour of surrogacy try - they are not women or mothers but ‘carriers’ or ‘surrogates’.

I couldn't imagine another women telling me that I'm not the mother of my child because someone else grew mine and my husbands embryo inside of their body. I don't know what the need for that would be

well if you paid for a baby and got that baby, you may be the mother raising it but you’re not the babies mother who grew it and gave birth. This is just fact. I know people in favour of surrogacy don’t like facts. They prefer emotive language and obfuscation .

tell me @IVFGotThis05 if you say end up using a donor egg and grow a baby and give birth to that baby would you say you are not the babies mother as its not your genetics?

There might be another thread on this, but it reminded me of a recent Stephen Fry article where he says he's probably had opportunities to have children in the past. He's a gay man, so unless he was planning to use a surrogate it's not that easy, is it. I hate it when pregnancy and the use of women is taken for granted like that

What about the baby's bond with the only mother it knows? Believe me, when newborns are born all they want is the person who has grown them, whose smell they know, whose voice they recognise, whose blood runs in their veins, whose heartbeat provides comfort. My son loves his father of course, but for those first few weeks and months it was only me he wanted to make him feel safe. You're ripping that away from "your" future baby - because it's all about you and your want. No thought for the risks and trauma caused to the birth mother and baby.

Because it's my body I put at risk, my health and well-being I sacrificed throughout pregnancy and early days and because my baby has not had to suffer any post natal trauma because he's with the mother who grew him.

I watch mic and these scenes always make me feel uncomfortable, the way they talk about it and disregard the woman. Apparently it's failed three times (I know two of which were miscarriages and both times they never asked or mentioned the woman).

Commercial adoption in the US (and a lot of the world) is a huge business, it’s an entire business made around exploiting, pressuring and bribing poor vulnerable women (and in some cases couples) into thinking the best thing for them and their baby is to sell it to a wealthy couple.

People really should do more research into it as it’s just as much of an issue, if not more so than commercial surrogacy, at least with surrogacy the woman knows she’s getting pregnant with the whole purpose of giving the baby away. The adoption model we have in the UK is not the same as in the US and most of the world, it’s not just children forcibly removed from neglectful or abusive parents, rich couples buying children from poor women is not any better or more altruistic than a couple hiring a poor woman to be their surrogate, I would say in a lot of cases it’s worse.

www.originscanada.org/documents/infant.pdf

time.com/6051811/private-adoption-america/

My best friend had 3 miscarriages, each one destroying her a little bit more. If the 4th pregnancy hadn't been successful, i told her i would be her surrogate, and i meant it.

I absolutely understand some women being against it and thats their right to an opinion.
But i saw a woman who yearned to be a mother, who wanted to have her own child and knowing that child would be loved and cared for beyond belief and knowing it would given a the best life she could possibly give it, of course i would.

Wow, mumsnet really escalates doesn't it. People against surrogacy are very forceful with their opinion. I'm still very much just seeing both sides. I think some aspects of surrogacy are wrong, but there are a few good reasons that are personal to both parties of surrogacy that can make both happy, so long as they know the risks involved.

@BlueThomas I am not in favour of surrogacy per say... I'm commenting on the fact that people who are against have felt the need to tell people that they are not mothers.

The whole erasing the mother.. that's not every situation either? I mean celebrities that a few have given examples of, yes. But you don't know every surrogate story to say that the mother is erased. Not all adoptions consider the biological mother either, they might never get thought of again from Parents and adopted child so will essentially still be 'erased'!?

Someone mentioned the risks of pregnancy and what if something happened to the surrogate during said pregnancy, you're right I don't think I could deal with that either, knowing I'd put them through that for something that I wanted.

But this is completely different. This is two people who are biologically incapable of conceiving and carrying a child together, because neither of them has the XX chromosome.

To anyone on the thread struggling to have children or who can’t, I’m so sorry for what you’re going through but this is completely different. What I found awful about the article is that they said THEY were having a miscarriage. No they weren’t!! As someone who’s had two miscarriages it actually really upset me. Never ever did my DH say ‘we’re having a miscarriage.’ He said ‘Farcis is having a miscarriage’ that’s totally different

“when newborns are born all they want is the person who has grown them, whose smell they know, whose voice they recognise, whose blood runs in their veins, whose heartbeat provides comfort.”

Surely they only know the smell of the amniotic fluid (before they have breast milk which I know they can then smell and identify). Also, the voice of the mother will be so muffled through the fluid and muscles that it must sound completely different when born. They also do not share blood and would not hear the heartbeat in the same way once born. The mother’s blood also doesn’t mix with foetuses.

I’m not sure if I’m pro or anti surrogacy as I’m lucky enough to never have to think about it much but people who have chosen to go down this route must feel wretched reading things like that.

Just realised this is on the feminist forum. People with emotional involvement should probably steer clear..