Friends doing surrogacy: how to keep my feelings to myself

[AlexandraOrlov]

Before having my daughter, I had no issues with surrogacy but in the years that have passed, I’ve found it less and less comfortable. She screamed every time she was removed from my chest after birth, and for weeks her world was only right when she was on me, and no-one else. It was such an animal, instinctive bond, like we were still one unit. I cannot imagine what it would have meant for her if I’d have left then and she’d just had her father.

My friends (gay male couple) are starting their surrogacy journey. They’re in the US, it’s costly, but they both earn crazy money and they’ll have as many goes as it takes. Most contact with them has been over WhatsApp so I’ve been able to say all the “right” things but we’re visiting them in February and it’s going to be hard to sound supportive when I just feel really odd about this baby who is going to emerge knowing the smell of its “mother” and rooting for milk. Full context we are TTC again and it’s not going well, which is not helping.

I know all of this is probably not rational, and I truly believe that same sex couples are wonderful parents. I also don’t know how I feel about surrogacy when there’s a women or two women as the intended parents, I can’t unpack it that far.

How the bloody hell do I handle my mixed up feelings on this visit to not ruin a friendship I value deeply? Processing and debating it “live” with them doesn’t feel like a great idea but I’m terrible at hiding my feelings.

@sleepyfelines I don't judge your friend for making the offer.

I'd think you weren't being much of a friend to her if you accepted though.

How would you feel if she died as a result of having your child, leaving her 2 existing children? While we are lucky to live in a country with good medical care, as you know maternal deaths happen.

As I also said, I've been through infertility and I understand the emotions and the all consuming desire for a child.

Surely you should inform yourself by getting to know some families with children born through surrogacy if you want to understand the implications for the children involved - it would only serve to deepen your understanding of how they are doing. Without that knowledge you are prioritising pet theories over first hand experience. If you were trying to influence policy on any of the other subjects you've mentioned I would certainly expect you to have taken the trouble to get first hand experience and opinions from the individuals at the centre of the issue. Otherwise, especially without data to support your specific claims, you are just pontificating endlessly.

You know perfectly well that you contribute to a culture of children being described as commodities - it does not exist within the surrogacy community but it's being actively encouraged on this thread and others you frequent. You do need to think about how much of the problem you will be for children as that language is dehumanising and only serve to stigmatize children - it will not stop surrogacy in the UK as it's growing in our culture and in law. You can dodge all you like but you're not helping the children in question - quite the opposite.

I note you use the word hyperbolic to avoid an inconvenient truth but are unable to come up with any data to support your view that children born through surrogacy do not thrive, other than sentiment based on an idea that babies not born through surrogacy spend their lives upon their mother's breast - they often don't as women have other roles to play, their mother is not the only parent and this is not ideal for many women. It's absurd to pretend that babies don't thrive or are suffering harm if this is not their experience. The biology is not in your favour - human babies are able to develop slowly because they are able to thrive in caring communities. Fathers are also adequate care givers.

You will be pleased to know that it is becoming easier to access the equivalent of maternity leave for parents through surrogacy as this is beneficial for the children involved - although I suspect less pleased that this is another indication that our culture is normalising surrogacy, whatever the Mumsnet echo chamber may think.

our culture is normalising surrogacy, whatever the Mumsnet echo chamber may think.

Culture doesn't always move forward when it normalizes things. Feminists fight for the rights of women and sometimes we lose, it doesn't mean we stop working despite what popular culture wants to accept. Abortion rights, for example, are going backwards.

There are plenty of resources that show it's not all roses for donor-conceived children. www.wearedonorconceived.com/

And a LOT showing the exploitation of surrogacy. web.archive.org/web/20220509004549/www.nytimes.com/2022/05/03/magazine/surrogates-ukraine.html

When those babies grow up and see their surrogate birth was in Ukraine during the middle of a war, do you really think they won't feel conflicted about what their parents did? Those families in particular I would very much like to understand. I do hope there is journalistic follow up in 20-30 years.

I agree @Delphinium20

And what about the babies evacuated from Nepal after the earthquake, whilst their mothers were left to take their chances.
Although I've read several articles about it, I've only just seen this one, and hadn't realised that most (?all) of those mothers were Indian. So not just abandoning impoverished women in a disaster zone but whole scale people trafficking too. Nice.

Imagine growing up and finding your "parents" were the sort of people who would do this.

Interesting that some of the gay community there think differently:

"'I support the right of gays and others in the LGBT community, to which I belong, to have children and build families in Israel,' he writes. 'But I don’t think that these rights ought to be achieved at the expense of other human beings. Because then our struggle goes from being the most just in the world to being one that creates another injustice. And I think there is enough injustice in the world as it is.'"

www.progress.org.uk/earthquake-throws-spotlight-on-israeli-use-of-nepalese-surrogacy/

Plenty of fertile gay men who desperately want children don't use surrogates to become dads. Some adopt. Some co-parent with a single mom or lesbian couple. Some foster. Some take on strong family roles as very involved uncles. Some choose to work with children. All of that I applaud. I appreciate when gay men stand up for their sisters and recognize the weight and risk of reproduction falls on women.

@Forthelast you support the progression, normalisation and legalisation/regulation of surrogacy which does commodify children and does exploit women. You are informed and it sounds as if you have a vested interest which I could speculate on. You know my position from reading threads I've created or contributed to and my stance remains unchanged. I make no secret of this and said early on that you should refer to my posting history.

Buying and selling human beings is not something that should be supported in my view or normalised in society and to want to prevent children from being sold is not "indirect child abuse". If these children/adults are offended by the fact they have been purchased (or given away in exchange for 'expenses') they have every right to take it up directly with me or anyone else who says the same. Are you one of these children, are you offended?

It is not "indirect child abuse" to say they have been bought and sold, it is truthful. That is what it is when you pay a woman for a baby. It could also be called human trafficking. Of course the surrogacy 'community' wouldn't use the language I use, but I use my own words.

(Of course there are surrogate born children who have been abused, see Mark Newton and Peter Truong and their son Adam. A Convicted Paedophile, also from Australia, rejected the male Down syndrome twin and took home the twin daughter. The son was left in Thailand with his mother. It was a well known case I'm sure you're familiar with. A lesser know case was a of a surrogate mother having the FBI turn up at her door as the commissioning father of her children was in a paedophile ring. There are also paedophile rings connected to surrogacy and 'private adoptions' of surrogate born babies rejected by commissioning parents.)

You have made a number of assumptions...
That I am a PhD student
That I am not/could not be a mother...

How do you know I don't know surrogate born children? You don't.
How do you know I don't know commissioning parents? You don't.
How do you know I don't know surrogate mothers? You don't.

You could ask...

My posts have lots of resources I'm sure you've seen and I mention three examples upthread of children negatively affected by surrogacy, one with her own testimony. I also shared a study re NICU babies as you were not aware of anything you called 'NICU syndrome'. Is that study worthwhile do you think? Did you read and consider the conclusions? This was something you were previously unaware of. Has your understanding of babies in NICU now more informed? Just because you haven't heard of something happening, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

I'll base my theories and opinions on what I read (books and studies), the people I talk to on the subject and those who have direct experience. You base yours on whatever you like.

I hope that in your support of surrogacy you have also read about the other side, the darker side, so to build a well-rounded, informed view. If someone is in a 'community', external, alternative views may not penetrate as the community wouldn't want to be criticised, they may prefer a sort of echo chamber perhaps.

The facts I shared I consider to be relevant. As you say yourself, maternity leave is relevant in surrogacy and is becoming more common in employment policy in the U.K. You presume (again) that I would be against this, only as it would normalise surrogacy further. You didn't ask, but I do think leave from your job to be the primary carer for a newborn should apply to employment law. At the same time as thinking this I recognise that mat leave was also designed for mothers (not fathers) to recover from labour, something a commissioning parent wouldn't need to do. Fathers are 'adequate' care givers, but they do not breastfeed. Some mothers don't either. Breastfeeding is relevant in surrogacy - have your heard of milk farms? Of surrogate mothers being contracted to produce and send milk on ice, pumped and paid for and packaged and sent out of state? Have you also heard of medication taken to prevent breast milk being produced naturally which surrogate mothers can take to prevent a milk supply? Maybe you have and have already considered the possible impact of this on hormones, well-being etc.

IVF and donor conception, genetics/genealogical bewilderment, body autonomy, multiple birth, premature babies, miscarriage, baby loss, exploitation of women for their reproductive systems, low income women vs wealthy infertile couples, childcare for newborns, studies, data (anecdotal or otherwise), 'lived experience' and 'journeys', law and employment policy; all are relevant to surrogacy.

We can discuss it all in connection to, or separate from surrogacy. We can also discuss pearls and how they should be clutched and what behaviour is appropriate for women posting on this Board if you would like to.

@OhHolyJesus 👏👏👏

@OhHolyJesus 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 well said. Buying a human is NEVER ok, however you dress up the payment.

@OhHolyJesus is a queen.

She's one of the most knowledgeable women in the world when it comes to surrogacy. She is a wealth of information on this topic and her disciplined approach to gathering information and data should be lauded.

Some earlier posts seemed to think that because some surrogacy arrangements use donated eggs, it makes it better ethically.
I have donated my eggs few years ago, and would like to point out how much the procedure is a toll on a woman's body. The fertility drugs cause a lot of side effects and carry risks. The side effects include nausea, dizziness, painful swelling, bloating, hot flashes, etc... Egg retrieval is usually carried out using either local or general anaesthesia. I found local anaesthesia incredibly painful, as only the vagina is numbed, not the ovary and piercing swollen ovaries with a needle really hurts (men, think about having a needle piercing your swollen testicles).
The risks of egg donation are:

• Ovarian hyperstimulation, a potentially lethal complication of stimulation
• Egg retrieval is a surgery so it carries the regular risks to surgery: infection, allergic reaction to anaesthesia, death...
• Recent reviews from Cochrane (the highest level of medical evidence) have found an increased risk of ovarian cancer in women who had ovarian stimulation drugs: www.cochrane.org/CD008215/GYNAECA_there-increased-risk-ovarian-cancer-women-treated-drugs-subfertility

After donating eggs, I developed ovarian cyst on one of my ovary. It's not very dangerous (just painful) and it's impossible to know for sure if it was caused by the ovarian stimulation drugs or if it would have developed anyway. But I have this pain nearly every months when In ovulate; and when I got pregnant, the pain (as it was on my side) was suspected to be ectopic pregnancy, so I had to spend an afternoon at emergency service getting checked.

I'm not against egg donation and don't regret having done it, but it angers me when people talk about it like it's a simple procedure, as simple as sperm donation. And I would like all people who are pro-surrogacy, or those that think that using donated eggs make surrogacy less problematic ethically, to really think about the extra toll and risks caused not only to the woman carrying the baby (the "gestional carrier", who is in fact a human being) but also to the egg donor (another human being).

I agree with your post @Liveafr and I thought this might be an interesting thread for you.

I donated my eggs AMA www.mumsnet.com/Talk/AMA/4715888-i-donated-my-eggs-ama

And thanks to @Delphinium20 for your kind words, I really appreciate that.

I do not pretend to be an expert but I have learnt a lot and will always share what I find as it's important to see both sides and as there is no shortage of positive stories of surrogacy in the press so the balance needs to be readdressed somehow.

(I have noticed a slightly more critical side coming through with Covid travel restrictions and the Russian invasion of Ukraine and few journalists have been covering the UK's law commission's proposals since their publication in 2019. Julie Bindel, Sonia Sodha and Cathrine Bennett have been really good on this.)

The OP says herself she doesn’t know how she feels about two women being surrogates. In her first post.

Exactly.

Thank you for writing this. Excellent explanation

I think yabu. There are many different ways to build a family.

Yes, your baby loved your smell, milk, skin etc. You formed a close bond.

A baby who has a consistent and attentive caregiver will form a close bond with them and find them comforting. Many babies aren't breastfed.

What if there was a naturally conceived baby whose parents used a nanny from the get-go? Would you object to that? If a baby's mother is sick and they have another caregiver in the early days, is that as bad or does the payment side of things really determine your view?

I think you're basically saying 'your way of having a baby is not as good as mine' and colouring that with your TTC challenges. That's not their fault.

Thanks @Redebs it's infuriating when telling the truth is portrayed as 'abuse'.

I* think you're basically saying 'your way of having a baby is not as good as mine' and colouring that with your TTC challenges.*

I think you're ignoring the obvious here. Heterosexual couples with no infertility issues can conceive, same sex couples cannot and heterosexual couples with infertility issues all require 'outside help'. Other adults provide medical knowledge and assistance with conception. This OP is about a gay male couple and so they 'require' significant 'help' from women if not just one woman if her egg is also 'required'. Obviously multiple other people are paid for the 'help' they provide. This poses moral questions and an ethical dilemma and this is not separate to their method of 'family building'. It is central in fact. For this, anyone can ask questions and judge it if they want to. Surrogacy is 'worse' as the child is removed from the mother in every case, it is more comparable to adoption so maybe the same requirements should apply? If not why not? It is always ok to ask questions of controversial practices in my view. We build laws upon this basis.

What if there was a naturally conceived baby whose parents used a nanny from the get-go? Would you object to that?

I've talked on MN before about how DH has deal with kids through scouting who have been pretty much been emotionally neglected because they've been cared for by the nanny / au pair with the parents not taking an interest. The lack of love and the prioritisation of money is a form of neglect. Of course because the parents are middle class and well off it's deemed fine. But these kids have been deeply troubled and are desperate for someone to properly give a shit rather than just be paid help. I believe one developed an eating disorder which requires intervention.

So yes I do think it's problematic if you think parenting can be bought with paid help.

Any couple that just thinks they can flash the cash and buy their way through life and use their status to say 'look what a wonderful parent I am' without actually thinking about the emotional well being of that child is abusive.

There's a whole thread on MN called Stately Homes which I'm sure some from it will understand where I'm coming from on this.

Parents need to 'be present' as well as pay for their kids. A kid needs to know where they come from and what their background is - it's a crucial part of identity formation.