Friends doing surrogacy: how to keep my feelings to myself

[AlexandraOrlov]

Before having my daughter, I had no issues with surrogacy but in the years that have passed, I’ve found it less and less comfortable. She screamed every time she was removed from my chest after birth, and for weeks her world was only right when she was on me, and no-one else. It was such an animal, instinctive bond, like we were still one unit. I cannot imagine what it would have meant for her if I’d have left then and she’d just had her father.

My friends (gay male couple) are starting their surrogacy journey. They’re in the US, it’s costly, but they both earn crazy money and they’ll have as many goes as it takes. Most contact with them has been over WhatsApp so I’ve been able to say all the “right” things but we’re visiting them in February and it’s going to be hard to sound supportive when I just feel really odd about this baby who is going to emerge knowing the smell of its “mother” and rooting for milk. Full context we are TTC again and it’s not going well, which is not helping.

I know all of this is probably not rational, and I truly believe that same sex couples are wonderful parents. I also don’t know how I feel about surrogacy when there’s a women or two women as the intended parents, I can’t unpack it that far.

How the bloody hell do I handle my mixed up feelings on this visit to not ruin a friendship I value deeply? Processing and debating it “live” with them doesn’t feel like a great idea but I’m terrible at hiding my feelings.

Great ohj, you have found the data to 'prove ' my statement that the law changed last month for Irish parents. Well done! I'm not sure why you're posting it as if it's some kind of gotcha news though - gas lighting on your part, perhaps. You do have a strange attitude to research.

We don't assume that well cared for children, born and brought up within the laws of the land, are being harmed without evidence. The legislation would not be moving in the direction that is it if you had such evidence. You cannot even anecdotally report a child that you know who has been harmed through surrogacy. There are many who are thriving and no evidence that any are not - but don't let the facts get in the way.

You're not going to win this one and your stance won't help women in this country who choose to undergo surrogacy. It may be actively harmful to children in these circumstances as you are creating sigma for children and their parents in these circumstances by encouraging a culture in which they are referred to as commodities who are, according to you and others like you, bought and sold. It may be time to accept that if you can't say anything nice and you can't stop it happening, disparaging these children is indirect abuse that creates a new problem for those who are most vulnerable.

stigma

That's a new take, to frame people discussing the issues around surrogacy as perpetrating "indirect" abuse on the resulting children.

Honestly, I find your view more problematic than theirs.

They desperately want a child of their own. To imply that the child would be distressed and inconsolable (which is what you're doing when you talk about your own child screaming when taken away from your chest) is nonsense. I've held/cuddled/comforted multiple new born babies, none of which were my own. None have been inconsolable. And by new born, I mean minutes old onwards. When there's two anaesthetists in a c section, it's not unusual for one of us to take the baby off dad when he feels like he's going to vomit/faint. In an emergency delivery, a baby is passed to paediatrics as soon as it's born (I did a paediatrics job before starting anaesthetics) to be checked over- if all was ok, I'd wrap the baby and carry it back to mum. When babies are on SCBU, a lot of the parents aren't able to stay in hospital with them- who do you think feeds them overnight? Usually the nurses, but they let doctors help as well (didn't help with how broody I was but it was a lovely break!).

Yes, a baby recognises his/her mother...but they also recognise a safe environment and the arms of someone who loves them.

I'm currently going through fertility treatment. One of my friends has already said that if we can't conceive, she would happily be a surrogate for us. That's an amazing and selfless act on her part.

You can't claim to have a special interest in something without some first hand experience of the people you are concerned about.

I've never been raped, had cancer and I'm not a lesbian but I am will take a special interest in rights and protections, treatment and justice for those who have in whatever I damn well please.

It may be time to accept that if you can't say anything nice and you can't stop it happening, disparaging these children is indirect abuse that creates a new problem for those who are most vulnerable.

Again, please stop making things up. I said no such thing, I have not 'disparaged' children born from surrogacy and questioning surrogacy, it's impact and the laws built to facilitate is not "indirect abuse". Your hyperbolic posts with unevidenced claims are becoming extreme and repetitive now. I've clarified points made and will not be doing so again, I suggest you re read what I've already posted.

I can promise that I will not "say anything nice" if I don't want to, nor will I stop speaking if I'm told to "not say anything at all". Not even my mother told me that, in fact she said quite the opposite.

@sleepyfelines before I start I'll say that I've been through infertility.

Surrogacy exploits women. You'd be no friend to that woman if you allowed her to do that for you. No one is entitled to a child. Infertility sucks! No way though would I let a friend go through fertility treatment for me. I wouldn't let them put their health or life on the line for me.

Wow, you sound incredibly judgemental.

If a friend (who has not only had two children herself, but is also a doctor, so I can guarantee knows the risks better than you) wants to make that offer then you are in absolutely no position to criticise me.

I suggest you stop talking to your "friend" for their benefit.

Deliberately creating a child to remove it from its mother to fulfil an adult's desire is wrong.

It is not the best thing for the baby. Buying and selling babies is abhorrent.

I only have personal experience of two adults who were born through surrogacy.

Both have a host of mental health problems.

They often liken themselves to the adopted as babies adults in our support group, and seem to feel that a lot of the subjects brought up resonate with them.

No idea if that is true for everyone else, but it makes sense when they are chatting about the studies done re: adopted at birth children.

Technically they're not the mother tho. Doesn't have their dna or genetics.

Surrogacy ethics should consider that a child often has THREE mothers. Birth mother (surrogate mother), genetic mother (egg donor) and legal mother (commissioning female parent).

You don't always get all three and sometimes the egg donor is also the commissioning female parent. And sometimes there are only male commissioning parents. However, to pretend that a surrogate mother isn't a mother for giving birth is very odd considering we use "birth mother" for women who give up babies for adoption. We use it for women who implant a donated/purchased egg into their wombs. Lesbian families often use it to explain which mother gave birth. Mother means female parent and there are loads of qualifiers for mother including adoptive mother and step mother. I find it dehumanizing to claim a surrogate is not a type of mother.

Don’t think the traumatised newborn programmed to miss their birth mothers touch/sound/scent gives a shit about a ‘technicality’.

Wow, you sound incredibly judgemental.

I agree that we may come off as judgmental. If you'd consider participating in an ethically fraught action, you may feel judged. All humans have the potential to commit questionable acts. As feminists we ask questions when we see actions that we believe have the potential to exploit women and the potential to harm children. It's imperative to look into all the issues surrounding surrogacy in order to protect vulnerable women and children. I feel horrible for women going through infertility and support health initiatives, research and education to improve birth rates for men and women with infertility. But I don't think anyone should be allowed everything possible in order to become a parent.

The following acts may get you a child but I believe they exploit vulnerable women and children. These are things I would judge someone for:

You shouldn't be able to influence a pregnant teen girl to give up her baby for adoption. You shouldn't be able to use manipulative advertising to influence a young woman to sell her eggs. You shouldn't be able to purchase eggs from a woman who has never had children of her own. You shouldn't take advantage of a system that gives discounts to OTHER infertile women going through IVF if they donate any of their eggs or embryos. You shouldn't rent the body of a woman to gestate a baby. You shouldn't buy a baby. You shouldn't steal a child.

If you do any of the above, a great deal of people around the world and from diverse cultures will judge you. Complaining about that is odd.

Which one of those things would I be doing, by taking up a completely unprompted offer from a friend to be a surrogate for us?

I joined Mumsnet when we started fertility treatment. This post has made me want to leave and never look back.

I thoroughly believe that birth certificates should record all relevant information.

So yes, birth mother, genetic mother and genetic father (where possible). Where an anonymous sperm / egg donor has been used, this should also be reflected on the birth certificate with a unique ID number. If there are legal parents from a same sex relationship they could be added for legal reasons but they don't reflect the birth.

The birth certificate if the child's identity. It's not a prop for parents to erase the reality of their biological history. Yes the child's social parents are important to know, respect and acknowledge but the material reality of a child should also be known too. Because they should be centred not the parents.

Actually @Emmamoo89 a woman who has given birth to a baby is a mother in law and biology - or "technically" as you like to call it.

From The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990 to the present HFEA 2008:

Section 27 of the 1990 Act (now section 33 of the 2008 Act) provided that: “The woman who is carrying or has carried a child as a result of the placing in her of an embryo or of sperm and eggs, and no other woman, is to be treated as the mother of the child.”

This is incredibly important for women's rights / maternity rights. If there was a class of woman who had given birth but wasn't a mother what rights would she have? What is such a woman if the act of having been pregnant and given birth can be erased?

This is important for the mother's rights and for child safeguarding. Given how minimal to non existent the checks in commissioning parents are you could have a situation where a mother realises these people are not suitable parents for her baby. This has happened in the USA and the binding nature of the surrogacy contract has deprived the woman of the chance to protect her child (or triplets in one case that has gone through the courts). In the U.K. there have also been cases such as one of twins where the commissioning mother rejected the disabled twin, calling it a "dribbling cabbage" but accepted the other twin. The birth mother cares for the disabled twin and I'm surprised she allowed the other to go to such an unpleasant woman. One day we will hear from that twin when they grow up I expect.

Link to "dribbling cabbage" story. Sorry I can't do a share token. Maybe someone else here can.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/woman-rejected-disabled-surrogate-baby-as-a-dribbling-cabbage-fzqqk6cc56v

@Emmamoo89 Is a woman who uses donor eggs to become a parent that child's mother? Or is the mother the woman who donated the eggs?

There is a deliberate attempt to remove the word mother from surrogacy arrangements. It's sinister.

Here you go:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/woman-rejected-disabled-surrogate-baby-as-a-dribbling-cabbage-fzqqk6cc56v

Nope, that wasn't the share token, this is: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/906372bf-1f6f-4195-b75b-d18202b12bd6?shareToken=be57973b424357554450bb9df7caa98d

@sleepyfelines Depends on the transaction details - are you planning on paying her for this? Is she financially secure and only doing it for altruistic purposes? As far as ethics goes, I think altruistic surrogacy may not have the same exploitative factors as paid surrogacy. But any kind of embryo implanted surrogacy has health risks that are greater than traditional pregnancy.

I wouldn't judge the woman who is offering to be your surrogate but if I were her friend/husband/child, I'd want her to be aware of the added health risks with non-related embryo implantations and I'd ask her to consider her thoughts on if she wanted/needed an abortion and how would she protect her right to that. Or what if she had severe side effects, including postpartum depression. Will she plan to breastfeed, see the baby, etc.

I'd question you taking her up on the offer because asking someone else to risk their life and emotional health to have a baby is a very big ask, especially if you don't really understand what you're asking. I'd ask you to consider closely if your friend is a people pleaser and too often puts her own needs behind all others. Pregnancy and giving birth are a very big deal and don't always go the way we want it to go.

Feminism often makes people uncomfortable. I'm used to that.

As I said in a previous post, both she and I are doctors, so safe to say we both fully understand the health implications. I'd appreciate if people could at least read that sentence before telling me I'm considering risking the life of a close friend.

As it's not currently an option being discussed, I can only answer the other questions from my perspective: it's her body. If she felt she needed a termination I would support her. We would pay any expenses associated with pregnancy (including loss of salary) but I don't think we'd be paying her for the process- not least because that is illegal in England. She is financially secure. She would absolutely be seeing the baby- we're close friends and I see her kids frequently- they call me auntie (unless she didn't feel able to, in which case I would understand, and see her separately while my husband had the baby). Breastfeeding- up to her. It would be amazing for the baby from an immunity point of view if she wanted to prior to hospital discharge, or wanted to express milk for longer than that, but that would be completely her choice.

Completely agree RedToothBrush. Birth certificates should reflect as much accurate information as is known at birth. They are data collection for a child not simply a parent's certificate. A child has the right to know their origins

And once again, I didn't ask her. She offered, completely unprompted, when we were starting our fertility investigations.

As I said in a previous post, both she and I are doctors, so safe to say we both fully understand the health implications.

I knew you were both doctors when I commented. I don't doubt your friend is aware of the risks of pregnancy. But not all doctors specialize in surrogacy births, so I raised the risks of non-related embryo implantation as I don't see this discusses in any media. I don't think your situation equivalent to someone hiring a woman in Ukraine or India to be her surrogate. Again, as you know the risks she'd be undertaking for you, I suggest you to consider if this is really something you could ask of a friend.

You may think I'm unsympathetic but In my own family, one sister struggled with infertility. Our youngest offered to be a surrogate and I considered it for a hot second too. My infertile sister couldn't let her do that because, again, it's such a big ask. My sister decided that not having a biological child was not more important than my other sister's health and psychological well-being. I get some people feel desperate when they struggle with infertility but I don't think desperate people always make sound judgments - that's why laws exist to protect against exploitation in surrogacy and egg purchases.

Another factor is your DH. As it's his baby too, what if he put demands, even subtle, on your friend during the pregnancy like diet or birth choices or asked about her sex life? Maybe he's lovely and wouldn't do this but that dynamic is often overlooked when entering surrogacy arrangements with friends.

Surely you've studied ethics in medical school. Maybe run this through an ethics decision-making process before agreeing to your friend's offer.