School skirt policy - could you help me organise my thoughts?

[NigellaAwesome]

I used to be so articulate. Between menopause & a PTSD diagnosis I find I just cannot order my thoughts and find the correct words anymore, so I am hoping some on here can help me?

DD's school are planning to change the school skirt from a standard 6 panelled straight skirt, to a fully 360 pleated affair just below the knee. The reason is to promote modesty and discourage girls from rolling their skirts up at the waistband.

I am no fan of rolled up skirts - I think it looks awful, but something about the proposed change doesn't sit well with me. DD complains that all the girls are routinely kept back after assembly, eating in to their break time, to have their skirt lengths inspected. Meanwhile, boys, who had shirts hanging out, or wearing hoodies in contravention of school uniform policy had nothing said to them.

Quite apart from the double standards, there is something about conveying a message to girls that they are responsible for managing their own modesty / others' perceptions towards them that doesn't sit well with me.

I suppose the flip side of the coin is that school is partly about preparing our children for the world of adulthood and work, in which there are expectations of appropriate dress code, and there is nothing wrong with the proposal - but something just doesn't feel quite right about it. It feels a bit puritanical / handmaidish tbh.

The school have requested parents' views on the new policy, and I want to respond, but cannot articulate my thoughts properly. Could anyone help me order my thoughts?

@Dinoteeth actually no. I'd argue that its not acceptable to show your arse or genitals or underwear to others even if you personally are comfortable with it.

The nearest school to me, the school I attended actually, has the girls walking around in public with very little left to the imagination. Their skirts are skin tight and just cover their buttocks. They ride up and leave nothing to the imagination. It’s embarrassing to witness.
We used to hitch our skirts up at school but would never have been allowed to go around like that. How times have changed.

I think it is a good idea to try to stop girls from rolling up skirts. I don't agree with the modesty statement, but I do think we as adult need to teach our children that there is a time and a place for certain items of clothing.

Very short skirts in school is not the place, same style skirt on a night out fine. The whole point of uniform is supposed to promote 'office/work attire' and if any women turned up to a work place dressed like this would be spoken to about appropriate work wear.

The whole point of uniform is supposed to promote 'office/work attire'

I don’t think that is the point of school uniforms.

I had to wear a pleated kilt back in the day as school uniform - bog-standard comp. Girls still rolled them up. But they didn’t roll them up anywhere near as high as I see girls from the same school doing it now. So it’s clearly still possible to roll a fully pleated skirt.

Always astonished by how many people are ‘the wrong shape’ or could never tolerate the ‘heat’ of wearing trousers. There are an awful lot of jobs those women are never going to be able to do.

Cant say I’ve ever looked at another woman in scrub pants and thought ‘goodness she’s the wrong shape for these loose fitting things requiring the wearer to have legs’.

What is the girls' PE uniform like?

I've worked in at least two schools were the girls PE kit was basically thick knickers. But their skirts had to be policed!

Dear head,

Why are you punishing all girls for a) a few rolling up skirts and b) because boys objectify the girls.

Perhaps educating the boys to behave decently would be better. My daughter should not be subjected to sexist treatment at school.

I object to the impression given, that my daughter is 'immodest' because she has knees.

Her PE kit consists of X and her skirt covers her shorts / ' skort' which she is expected to wear playing rounders / netball / football in full view of other pupils and staff.

If her PE kit is not modest that is the fault of the school prescribing those items. If the PE kit is considered to be modest then a skirt longer than her shorts / skort should also be considered modest.

Could you explain to me what you hope to teach the pupils by holding girls to a standard of modesty that is different to the boys. That is quite a sexist policy, considering I see more boys wearing non uniform clothing on their way to and from school.

I send my daughter to school in the correct uniform and I will continue to do so. If you do bring in the new skirt uniform then the school should provide the new skirts, money is tight for many people and this change stops uniform being passed down to younger siblings or sold second hand.

Obviously the PE kit argument doesn't apply if they have joggers or a track suit.

At my children high school PE kit is the same for boys & girls, thin shorts, thin top for summer. Rugby tops (thicker), black joggers and sweatshirt with knee high thick socks.

I don't know of any high schools that have the horrible PE Knickers I had to wear in the 1980's.

Dear sirs

please can you ensure that all sporting outfits for both boys and girls conform to the continuous standards of modesty required on the school premises at all times.

The rationale given was to stop boys taking photos on their mobile phones as the girls walked up glass staircases.

If they actually cared about stopping the boys from upskirting, they'd put modesty decals on the glass panels.

Always astonished by how many people are ‘the wrong shape’

I've just carried out an alteration on a pair of trousers to stop the crotch from pulling painfully into my vulva. It took several hours with my sewing machine. Many people lack both a sewing machine and the skillset required for such work. These people's daughters have the right to attend school.

Same. I rolled my straight skirt up to a mini skirt with thick black tights and clumpy shoes.
I see girls in DDs school struggling to cover their bum and the whole thing riding up and revealing their whole buttocks. it’s not decent and there’s no other circumstance in life you could dress like that for work etc.

Dear headteacher,

Why do only girls need to be 'modest' in their clothing?

The Oxford English dictionary defines modesty as, "the fact of not talking much about your abilities or possessions" as it is only the girls' uniform that needs to be modest this is blatant sex discrimination.

I send my daughter to school for an education, which should include her being proud of her achievements and to stretch her academic abilities.

A pleated skirt does not make a child any more or less of a child. I am worried that girls are being taught it is their responsibility for, well what? The behaviour and attitude of the boys? Or worse the behaviour and attitude of the teachers?

If you look at my daughter and see anything other than a child you should consider your career.

If it is the behaviour of the boys, perhaps part of their education should be about appropriate behaviour.

My daughter is expected to wear (insert PE uniform unless it is a tracksuit) so clearly the world doesn't end when her knees meet fresh hair.

My daughter is sent to school appropriately dressed in the prescribed uniform, she will not be wearing a pleated skirt in an attempt to police boys' behaviour.

You are the headteacher, you set the tone, you are responsible for the behaviour and attitudes that are the mores of the school.

Do better.

OK maybe not the last line, and maybe tone it down but I am livid on your behalf.

Just realised this is a zombie - looks like my vies have not changed.

I really hate the argument about “work clothes” which always seems to presuppose people will be in low-level or corporate jobs. Lots of workplaces don’t care what you wear. Tech jobs, academics, creative jobs, etc. Lots of people work from home. A freelance writer working at their desk at home doesn’t have to worry about office clothing. Other jobs like fitness instructor are actually wearing short and tight gym clothes. Maybe the girls will be Instagram influencers and make their career showing off their underwear! Obviously, as adults, we dress to suit the culture: a university won’t tell you what to wear (other than appropriate shoes in the lab, etc.) but people don’t show up to teach with underwear on display, etc. (it would be just as weird to show up in a suit). But I just hate the assumption that we all are going to go on to authoritarian, uniform based, workplaces - if schools want to enforce dress codes, do it on its own merit in the now, not based on imagined workplaces later.

DD complains that all the girls are routinely kept back after assembly, eating in to their break time, to have their skirt lengths inspected.

''Indirect discrimination happens when there is a policy that applies in the same way for everybody but disadvantages a group of people who share a protected characteristic, and you are disadvantaged as part of this group. If this happens, the person or organisation applying the policy must show that there is a good reason for it.''
www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-direct-and-indirect-discrimination

This includes humiliating uniform inspections and period passes to go to the toilet. I'm not sure they can show they have a good reason, because either the 'reason' or the 'solution' could be handled differently and in a way that does not humiliate or disadvantage girls.
The way they are handling it affects girls who comply with the rules.

A former colleague of mine, who was Canadian, once commented "it's really weird how in the UK kids are forced to wear school uniforms - especially for girls, it's so pervy". My niece wore trousers until she started school at age 5, then she started insisting 'girls don't wear trousers'. In mainland Europe it's very unusual for school age children to wear uniforms. In the UK it's very much part of the class system. In what other aspect of life would it be considered appropriate to insist a woman wears a skirt??

I fully support school uniforms.

It means that all kids are dressed similar which actually I think is essential for reducing inequality in schools.

As for school skirts - why can't a girl wear one if she wants?

My DD has never wanted to wear trousers. It's her choice. She tends to wear tights much of the time. In the summer she now puts shorts on underneath as she gets older (her choice). But I can't see how it's weird.

How is it part of the class system? Bearing in mind that all schools, barring a select few, have school uniforms?

How is it [school uniform] part of the class system?

Look at the uniform for Eton (tailcoats and top hats), then look at the uniform for a typical comp (black and white, can get from supermarket), then look at the uniforms for academies (often single-vendor, logos on everything) and then ask yourself how school uniforms could ever not be about class? If you think for one second that high-priced uniforms aren't used as a tool to keep poor kids out of certain schools, you are on glue.

Ban skirts - simple all wear trousers - its uniform - so all should be the same -

Ban skirts - simple all wear trousers

Trousers and sanitary towels don't always go well together.

Maybe we should say all skirts, then the boys could express themselves by sharing their bodies with all and sundry if it takes their fancy and we could call any girl or woman who objected a filthy perve.

What? Protect YOU??? Are you joking?? Sound like an absolute nonce.

Hi! I’m actually α daughter. I’m super modest when it comes to these things, I rolled up my skirt the other day and I get why people do it, I felt prettier and no one else noticed but it did. Other than that it’s way easier to move in it. About the issue, you can always try and start α petition, heaps of people on here seem to have the same issue with it. (And frankly, so do i).

Α few Days I saw α boy Post α video (in α school Without α uniform) wearing α mini Skirt and crop top (he was matching with his sister to see if he would get in trouble). By the first period the girl got in trouble and the boy didn’t.
Same thing applies for schools with uniforms. It’s because teachers are told to check girls uniforms, not boys.

I actually over heard α conversation With some of my strict teachers, apparently they ask girls to fix their uniforms even if it isn’t wrong just to see if it might be. They literally don’t even see the difference but they get young girls in trouble for it.