School skirt policy - could you help me organise my thoughts?

[NigellaAwesome]

I used to be so articulate. Between menopause & a PTSD diagnosis I find I just cannot order my thoughts and find the correct words anymore, so I am hoping some on here can help me?

DD's school are planning to change the school skirt from a standard 6 panelled straight skirt, to a fully 360 pleated affair just below the knee. The reason is to promote modesty and discourage girls from rolling their skirts up at the waistband.

I am no fan of rolled up skirts - I think it looks awful, but something about the proposed change doesn't sit well with me. DD complains that all the girls are routinely kept back after assembly, eating in to their break time, to have their skirt lengths inspected. Meanwhile, boys, who had shirts hanging out, or wearing hoodies in contravention of school uniform policy had nothing said to them.

Quite apart from the double standards, there is something about conveying a message to girls that they are responsible for managing their own modesty / others' perceptions towards them that doesn't sit well with me.

I suppose the flip side of the coin is that school is partly about preparing our children for the world of adulthood and work, in which there are expectations of appropriate dress code, and there is nothing wrong with the proposal - but something just doesn't feel quite right about it. It feels a bit puritanical / handmaidish tbh.

The school have requested parents' views on the new policy, and I want to respond, but cannot articulate my thoughts properly. Could anyone help me order my thoughts?

We have a "no leggings" rule in our school and I stand by it. It is frustrating for the people who follow it correctly and wear decent proper leggings but there is a large number of people using it as an excuse to wear see through leggings (more like 40 denier tights to be honest) with thongs clearly visible underneath. Nobody needs to be subjected to that! It is easier to say "no leggings" rather than specifically describing what leggings are and aren't allowed!

Why is it necessary for girls to wear above the knee skirts though? If shorts aren't part of the uniform for boys, why can't skirts be knee length for girls?

Perhaps because they are not generally intent on showing as much skin as possible?

I wonder if skirt culottes might be an acceptable alternative?

Whatever happens, and there are rights and wrongs to lots of angles on this, I just want to make a plea that women (of all people) stop making the argument that trousers work for everyone (because the men might hear you! and then it might happen). They don't. As it's mostly women on here I am going to be very direct about the physiology of why they don't work for me, my mum, one of my daughters, and lots of women and girls like us:

We have big bums and generically cut polyester trousers won't fit. I can wear very nicely tailored trousers but you don't want to be shelling out for those for a kid who is growing, and spilling pot noodle twice a week.
When I say don't fit, I don't just mean they are uncomfortable and ugly, I mean they can often cut into the crotch (because a small waist and a big bum means that there isn't enough length between waistband and crotch. you can't wear them lower on the hips if you are curvy because your waist is your waist, it's not like being a man or a less "hippy" woman, where you have a choice as to how low or high your waistband sits)
This causes health problems, as well as extreme discomfort.
Whether or not they fit, some women are prone to yeast infections and UTIs if they wear close fitting manmade fibres every day. Again, trousers need not be made of polyester but they usually are. It's miserable to get recurring infections and once they set in, they can be hard to deal with.
Periods make all of the above worse.
Trousers are also visually really unforgiving of troublesome periods. Skirts give you a little more grace as to when a leak shows and also allow for a lot more padding for the truly paranoid (or justifiably concerned).

Trousers cause a lot of problems of dignity, comfort and health for some women and girls, which just don't need to occur if we can just stick with the existing convention which is that people with female bodies can wear skirts if they choose (and in my kids' school so can boys, in theory, but they never do, but that's up to them).

What's the issue with girls not wearing leggings at school? Surely the option of a skirt or trousers is pretty normal? I'm assuming the boys (for example) can't wear leggings either? Or any other type of non tailored trousers, such as joggers?

(DC's sixth form specifies leggings only under a skirt or dress, which seems not unreasonable).

I’m getting old I suppose. I don’t worry about modesty but I do worry about so many schoolgirls looking absolutely freezing in tiny little skirts.
Trousers/joggers in winter seems sensible.

This is a pr9blem of "default male" and I agree, it's worse with school trousers.

Personally I think if schools relaxed about uniform rules children would dress more,not less, appropriately. The girls around me are quite grunge style out of school - baggy trousers and hoodie. The rolled up skirts are only in school and really because school insists on fugly polyester that doesn't fit well.

I also can't believe the policing of girls bodies that's going on, on this thread.
It's weird.

I think trousers should always be an option if a girl prefers to wear them.

As for the issue about skirt length, for short ones girls will often sit in a possibly uncomfortable position to avoid underwear being seen, or spend time adjusting their clothing possibly at the expense of concentration in lessons.

Policing of uniform whatever it is should be consistent for all pupils.

The use of the word modesty would piss me off.
Who really cares if girls wear short skirts?
Have a simple uniform policy and spend your time on lessons around respect and boundaries.

I have always thought a tracksuit should be a default school uniform - exactly the same for boys and girls. Practical, hardy, no sex differentiation, can’t be too long or too short. Etc.

I hate this whole debate TBH. Girls and/or boys - wear knee length skirts FFS. Parents - make them wear knee length skirts FFS. Yes, they will try to rebel - tough luck - still make them, they’ll get bored eventually. Problem solved.

Mini skirts are not appropriate for the workplace, therefore they are not appropriate for school. THE END.

I do agree though that 'modesty' is a shocking term and has terrible implications about the responsibility of girls for boys' bad behaviour.

I fully agree. I'm really surprised that so many on here don't seem to have an issue with the term 'modesty' or see why it is so problematic.

I don't disagree with your reasoning, but on OTOH the optics are a little bit Chairman Mao/Cultural Revolution...

I love this idea. Practical, inexpensive and encourages physical activity.

I think your letter is good, OP.

I have a couple of things you could add - on the “modesty” front, one of the issues with fully pleated skirts is that they are easier for someone to “flick up” and expose the wearer’s knickers. Something boys in some schools turn into a competition, to the discomfort and oppression of the girls.

Also, fully pleated skirts are very uncommon in the working world and do little to improve pupils’ understanding of the standards of dress that might be required of them, but they are popular in fetishistic porn (especially if tartan). So the idea that girls in pleated skirts will be more modest is probably false as they are more likely to be sexually objectified, especially on their way to school.

Surely it's knickers that provide modesty?noone gets "an eyeful" if you are wearing knickers. I think schools should chill out a bit. Does it matter if teenage girls want to show their legs? Noone minds them showing their legs when they are swimming or doing PE. Why not just leave them alone?

Lots of interesting views - thanks. For clarification, girls are allowed to wear trousers, but there are only one or two who do, and mainly for religious or sensory reasons.

I submitted my feedback, although had to do so anonymously as DD would have wanted the floor to open up if I had put my name to it.

I get the comments about micro skirts and seeing underwear, but tbh I don't see this as much of a problem in DD's school. I am at school twice a day doing drop off & pick up, and 99.9% of the girls wear skirts a couple of inches above the knee. Certainly nothing that could be called a micro skirt.

The policy is being driven by the VP, who is an absolutely lovely woman, but has got this between her teeth. I was in a meeting with her & DD last year about something entirely unconnected and she commented during the meeting that DD's skirt was too short. It was a 22inch long skirt and not rolled up and DD is no long legged gazelle. You could however see her knees. I was a bit .

Interestingly, during Covid, both my DC's schools reverted to wearing gym gear as tracksuit bottoms and hoodies could be washed more easily. I have to say I was a huge fan. The students looked smart and comfortable and I think it is a bit of a shame they have gone back to normal uniform.

A lot of girls wear tiny thongs. Would you be happy for your daughters knickers to be on display all day?

I don’t think it’s knees on display they’re worried about….. Some girls at my kids’ school attempt to go in with their skirts so high that their butt cheeks are almost visible - in games kit they often are! It IS inappropriate🤷🏼‍♀️ - I don’t get this ‘who cares if their knickers are on display, the boys shouldn’t be looking’ - the boys are teenagers who are learning to regulate themselves also, show them some mutual respect too.

Surely by the time a girl is a teen you ask the question- Are you happy for other people to see your bum? If you aren't then please wear a longer skirt, opaque tights or bigger pants.

Can’t they just get rid of uniform? Every non uniform day all the teens at our local school turn up in jeans, leggings and hoodies. Not a short skirt to be seen.

I would make 4 points
with regards to the skirts

1. requiring a uniform change that in an item overwhelmingly chosen by only one sex imposes additional costs on them and is discriminatory
2. environmentally. Items should not require replacement until they are worn out

with regards to the dress code
3) they should be doing a review of school uniform infraction enforcement to insure that there is no discrimination or bias. This should include number of infractions, student time used on the issue, and academic time lost.

4) if the uniform is being reviewed it is a good time to review the full policy and insure it contains no bias. For example, rules about skirts should not mention girls because any student should be allowed to wear any piece of uniform.