School skirt policy - could you help me organise my thoughts?

[NigellaAwesome]

I used to be so articulate. Between menopause & a PTSD diagnosis I find I just cannot order my thoughts and find the correct words anymore, so I am hoping some on here can help me?

DD's school are planning to change the school skirt from a standard 6 panelled straight skirt, to a fully 360 pleated affair just below the knee. The reason is to promote modesty and discourage girls from rolling their skirts up at the waistband.

I am no fan of rolled up skirts - I think it looks awful, but something about the proposed change doesn't sit well with me. DD complains that all the girls are routinely kept back after assembly, eating in to their break time, to have their skirt lengths inspected. Meanwhile, boys, who had shirts hanging out, or wearing hoodies in contravention of school uniform policy had nothing said to them.

Quite apart from the double standards, there is something about conveying a message to girls that they are responsible for managing their own modesty / others' perceptions towards them that doesn't sit well with me.

I suppose the flip side of the coin is that school is partly about preparing our children for the world of adulthood and work, in which there are expectations of appropriate dress code, and there is nothing wrong with the proposal - but something just doesn't feel quite right about it. It feels a bit puritanical / handmaidish tbh.

The school have requested parents' views on the new policy, and I want to respond, but cannot articulate my thoughts properly. Could anyone help me order my thoughts?

This!

Schools can't win - I agree they need to speak to the boys. But unfortunately men/boys do objectify women. Nowadays more than ever.

I first started teaching in 2001 and a lot of boys used to wear baggy trousers pulled down under their arse - so showing pants. They used do get told to pull their trousers up.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask girls to wear a skirt that covers their arse adequately. Nor is it unreasonable to ask boys to do the same with their trousers. Pants showing isn't really appropriate for either sex.

Modesty.... why is it only girls who are asked to be more 'modest' in their attire? Why is the 'modesty' of boys never an issue?

Every girl I know rolls skirt up. Regardless of school or style. May be under shorts to be introduced lol

The thing is they need to learn what is and isn’t appropriate workwear. It wouldn’t be acceptable to wear micro skirts barely covering your bum in an office, so why would it be appropriate at school? An unbuttoned top showing a lot of cleavage / clingy very short skirt would not be acceptable workwear . The girls need to learn that.

@converseandjeans remember that fashion I could never work out how their trousers stayed up. Even adults were at it showing off their Calvin Kliens 🤣

@surreygirl1987

Modesty.... why is it only girls who are asked to be more 'modest' in their attire? Why is the 'modesty' of boys never an issue?

Generally speaking girls rarely grope boys or try to look at their crotch. Sadly boys do grope girls & there are stories of girls being assaulted in school. The behaviour of the boys needs to change. But until it does, schools need to try to protect girls. There's also uoskirting and filming girls & uploading to social media. Why give boys the option to grope or film?

@Dinoteeth

It was awful. It's not nice seeing 14 year old boys pants 😉

Modesty.... why is it only girls who are asked to be more 'modest' in their attire? Why is the 'modesty' of boys never an issue?

Because boys are generally more covered up than girls, surely that is obvious? Many girls seem to think they should look 'sexy', boys not so much. I see school kids every day and I've yet to see a boy wearing something that wasn't 'modest', unlike some girls.

Because boys aren't rolling up their skirts and showing off their gussets

I think I would add something of this in op. eg “My daughter and I are horrified by the way the girls are being treated. The word ‘modesty’ has no place in a broadly secular and inclusive school. Moreover, lining the girls up to measure skirts is draconian and from the 1920s, not the 2020s.” The school needs to be pulled up on this. Btw I looked up the broadly secular and inclusive bit - academies have an agreement with the government to act in this way. If it’s a Christian school, change that to faith school or something.

I would omit the part about skirt length starting with “in my opinion” as underwear not being on show could be misinterpreted. I’d say in the sentence “With regard to the length of school skirts, I am fully supportive of moving away from the culture of micro mini skirts. However the insistence on having the skirt below the knee….”

Oh. And please add the sentence by SteveHarrington on misogyny.

any male teacher who had an issue concentrating when confronted with girls’ clothing, shouldn’t be working in a school.

Ffs this is not the reason for it!! It's never the reason. "oh but my cousins friends daughters school said this was the reason".... No they didn't! 😂

Uniform always brings up quite a debate and I agree with PP that it is hard for schools to get right. Their reasoning for the change is obviously not researched enough as pleated skirts certainly still will get rolled up! I imagine the "below the knee" rule is more to do with ease of policing it. Totally agree uniform inspections should be for every student!

They should have trousers and skirts and stop policing it inappropriately.

I haven't read all the thread but seeing many of the girls looking utterly ridiculous everyday I do think they need some guidance. They role the skirt so high the split at the back shows their butt cheeks, actual crack on display while walking up the road, the top of tights that are a different gauze/pattern is full on show and aside from that a teeny rolled skirt looks so out of place with the rest of the outfit. I don't understand how they don't realise they are walking along like it. Knees, thighs or a tight skirt would be fine but some of the adjustments are beyond. I feel they'll just do this with the chunky rolled skirts though. Are some just too immature to realise what they are doing?

I don’t see why modesty is an outdated term. It is just manners and self respect not to have your buttocks and crotch on public display . Especially in a learning environment.
We aren’t apes.

Well it seems they're exercising their freedom to inflict their arse and knickers on the poor unsuspecting public.

Because boys don't wear clothing that shows their underwear. The trend for slouchy jeans with pants on show above presumably isn't allowed either. Boys don't wear skirts so boys skirt length isn't an issue.

I'm a feminist but I do think schools should be allowed to have sensible dressing rules and be allowed to enforce them. Anyone annoyed by it could offer to run the school themselves in a manner that pleases all parents and pupils.

any policy for women and girls featuring the word modesty is obviously problematic.

I would say having a pleated skirt doesn't stop them from rolling them up. It was the done thing at my dds grammar school.

When DD started secondary I was pissed off that the girls' skirt (very long, fully pleated, to be worn above the ankle) is from a mandated supplier, whereas the boys' trousers can be purchased from anywhere (although, to be fair to the school, girls are allowed to wear trousers, which follow the same rules as the boys).

I'm now a governor, and having sat in on a meeting when uniform policy was discussed, I am 100% behind the school policy. As PPs have said, many girls will try to roll their skirts to a totally inappropriate length that leaves the school no choice but to do something about it. And this is the crucial point - the school Principal made the point that he absolutely does not want any member of staff - especially male staff - to ever be put in the position of closely scrutinising the length of a girl's skirt. Therefore the school has gone 'overboard' in making the skirts extremely long and offering no choice at all about the style.

Girls of course are free to wear trousers (and as of the latest policy update, boys will be free to wear skirts, subject to the same rules).

I do agree though that 'modesty' is a shocking term and has terrible implications about the responsibility of girls for boys' bad behaviour. If it was me I would definitely give feedback on their language, and suggest that any change to the policy should should be focussed on appropriate clothing, with exactly the same message for both boys and girls.

Interestingly this is just not a thing at DD's school. I wonder what the difference is? (not doubting you, just curious!)