School skirt policy - could you help me organise my thoughts?

[NigellaAwesome]

I used to be so articulate. Between menopause & a PTSD diagnosis I find I just cannot order my thoughts and find the correct words anymore, so I am hoping some on here can help me?

DD's school are planning to change the school skirt from a standard 6 panelled straight skirt, to a fully 360 pleated affair just below the knee. The reason is to promote modesty and discourage girls from rolling their skirts up at the waistband.

I am no fan of rolled up skirts - I think it looks awful, but something about the proposed change doesn't sit well with me. DD complains that all the girls are routinely kept back after assembly, eating in to their break time, to have their skirt lengths inspected. Meanwhile, boys, who had shirts hanging out, or wearing hoodies in contravention of school uniform policy had nothing said to them.

Quite apart from the double standards, there is something about conveying a message to girls that they are responsible for managing their own modesty / others' perceptions towards them that doesn't sit well with me.

I suppose the flip side of the coin is that school is partly about preparing our children for the world of adulthood and work, in which there are expectations of appropriate dress code, and there is nothing wrong with the proposal - but something just doesn't feel quite right about it. It feels a bit puritanical / handmaidish tbh.

The school have requested parents' views on the new policy, and I want to respond, but cannot articulate my thoughts properly. Could anyone help me order my thoughts?

Of course no member of staff - male
or female - should be put in a position
where they are scrutinising girls’
skirt length.

Frankly, I don’t see why the answer isn’t simply that skirt-related behaviour is problematic so the uniform is that all students will wear trousers.

And not to worry about whether they’re ‘too tight’ either.

If there’s some specific equalities act related issue for a student, then a reasonable adjustment can be agreed with the family. But otherwise, everyone can wear trousers.

There is really no need to have a skirt variation of school uniform at all.

But boys clothes lend themselves to modesty more naturally than girls. Generally speaking a boys uniform will be trousers and a long sleeve jumper. If they were going around bare chested or short shorts it'd be different. What language would you suggest they use instead?

Anything but ‘modesty’.

Appropriate clothing. Suitable clothing.

seriously though. Just make school
uniform trousers for all. And work with parent representatives to agree on any style variations they might require.

DD schools has those 360 pleated skirts. Lots of the girls are still rolling up their skirts and you can nearly see the bottom of their bum. They are supposed to be knee length too. I have no idea how pleated skirts are supposed to stop rolling up?

My daughter's secondary school introduced a specific uniform skirt in 2019 for the same reasons. It does not stop skirt rolling at all!! In addition it's £25 per skirt - I wrote a snotty email to the school this year on the grounds of the outrageous cost pointing out a very similarly designed skirt from Asda was £5.50, and also that boys could purchase trousers from anywhere so it was discrimination. Plus that specifying a brand and style of skirt fell foul of the government's uniform guidelines from 2019. I got told that the correct skirt could be purchased from any provider, it didn't have to be the shop listed on the school's website, and that this didn't count as being branded (despite the gov policy being clear on this matter). I bought the Asda skirt anyway, and my opinion of the Deputy Head fell a bit more.

I agree wholeheartedly though that it should not be the responsibility of girls/young women to dress modestly - this is the start of victim blaming. What is the real issue? Boys staring at girls backsides? Making inappropriate comments? Then that should be addressed in assemblies and PDC lessons.

Why are you even looking? And worse, remembering it and writing about it.
Reported.

That's because you don't live in the UK. You can buy knickers that look like black shorts too. I asked DD once and she said they are uncool. I think very few girls will choose to wear bike shorts under their skirts. If they want to cover up, they'll choose trousers anyway.

The fashion here locally has been to wear the skirts as long as possible for teenage school girls. In some schools it's like a competitive sport to see how long you can get away with

DC's school has the pleated skirts. They all roll them up. Also, a skirt that is "knee length" in Year 7, for most girls will be mid-thigh (at least) by Year 11. Are they saying parents must keep buying new skirts until their girls stop growing?

Surprised by so many people saying they can see girls' underwear. I would have thought that secondary school girls all wore shorts under skirts (which is a whole other question about why they should have to but ...)

www.letclothesbeclothes.co.uk/school-uniform Let Clothes be Clothes have a school uniform section that's got loads of info including a How to Change Your School's Policy bit.

Girls are going to roll up whatever skirt they have.

School uniform skirts can be £25 or above - compared to 2 pairs of boys trousers for £13.

Does the uniform shop even do different lengths/waists - my DD wore the same skirt from year 8 to year 11 as she had the same waist, but it was way short by aged 16. If I'd bought one the right length it would have been massive around her waist.

Strongly disagree with those saying all should wear trousers. If you have your period on a PE day you can change into PE shorts more discreetly if you have a skirt on, if you are wearing trousers everyone sees your pad.
School are wrong by using the modesty terminology, everyone should be smart. A pleated skirt would actually be better then a straight skirt (which was my schools rule) although I would be worried that a fully pleated skirt can be lifted by handsy boys or bullies.

There's nothing wrong with that post. Where do you expect them to look when the girl has her underwear in front of them, at their eye level?

There were some girls who chose not to wear underwear

This reads like some sort of hairy-handed fantasy. I don't believe for a second that some girls don't wear underwear at school.

Op have you said if the girls can wear trousers if they want to? Your proposed letter with the reference to boys being able to buy cheap supermarket trousers while girls have to pay more suggests not? If they can then I'd take that sentence out as it doesn't add anything as girls could also buy supermarket trousers if they want.

If not then that would be the focus of my complaint - if there is a much cheaper alternative out there that would solve the problem and many girls would prefer then they should introduce that instead of/as well as the new skirt and see if that makes a difference. Otherwise it is sex discrimation for girls to have to spend more on their uniform than boys.

It's the word 'modesty' that I have the real issue with, and I would strongly suggest the school use another term like 'appropriate' or 'tidy' (or both) instead.

Yeah I wouldn't bother either, at our school they get us to have our say on things and do what they were gonna do anyway! I find it the other way round at our school. I find the girls absolutely get away with everything. Half of them short skirts or looking like tanned umpa lumpas or wotsits and it all goes without punishment. Boys wear the slightly wrong shoes and all hell breaks loose. Also our school is changing to pleated skirts for all years except year 11 so might be more of a national decision 🤔

Why are you even looking? And worse, remembering it and writing about it.
Reported

Oh do get over yourself. You don't need to be actively "looking" to catch an eyeful of what someone is wearing under an extremely short skirt when they go up stairs (or bend over).

Only being allowed to wear trousers is not an acceptable option - who would want to be wearing trousers on a hot summer day? Also, trousers are not comfortable for everyone whereas skirts generally are.

Those of you who have a problem with the word "modesty" also need to get over yourselves. If you seriously believe that schoolgirls should be allowed to wear skirts which barely cover their bums then you have a problem. What is wrong with young women having a bit of self respect?

That's because you don't live in the UK. You can buy knickers that look like black shorts too. I asked DD once and she said they are uncool. I think very few girls will choose to wear bike shorts under their skirts.

Well, thank goodness I don't live in the UK if it is "cool" to show off your knickers (or lack of it seems in some cases). Do girls in the UK bike to school in these short skirts - that must be interesting!

I don't know if this will help you but... I went to senior school finishing in 2003
The school changed from a straight skirt to a pleated kilt while I was there for the same reason as your dd, to stop us rolling it up.
At the same time they also gave us the option of trousers.
The only girls I remember who wore the trousers were those from a religious background that placed more importance on modest clothing.
The rest of us continued to challenge how much we could actually roll our skirts up before getting into trouble.

In addition to this, the kilt was fantastic for wearing sanitary pads because you could really easily lift it up and get on with things. The 'shape' was much wider than a straight skirt and fit more of a variety of girls growing bodies as they changed and it didn't show up anything underneath while you're still learning how to manage your period. When you sat on the floor (not sure if dc still do in senior school but we had to) the skirt fell between your lap which was preferred at the time. No one went on to wear trousers (again, except the religious girls) because the skirt was much nicer and I note this is still the case when I see the girls from the school around nowadays.

I would have been more upset if they forced me to wear trousers and I really don't like this element of girls must not wear a skirt. Allow the boys to for equality but do not take the option of a skirt away from girls. What does that teach?!

Despite regular skirt length measuring, girls would simply roll their skirts up straight after this anyway.

So I think in all, trousers would be a request if I really had to say something, outside of school I was up there with being most immodest in my sense of dress! But I would not want trousers to take away a choice to wear a skirt.

Noone should be aiming to take away the choice from girls on what they wear so again, I would hope a choice is made available.
if the boys are not being pulled up on their uniform and it's only the girls, I would ask why the separation between the sexes. That's the real issue here imo. Not what skirts the girls are wearing.

I always preferred a school skirt to trousers. Trousers have never suited me (apart from certain types of jeans). Banning skirts is not the solution. I think OP should say that she doesn’t agree with the uniform change because it’s an unnecessary cost (unless the school is paying for the replacements). Also, boys should be held back for untucked shirts and incorrect footwear if girls are being held back for rolling up their skirts.

The worst type of post. I had this said to me by a girl I once taught. I answered that could not avoid the sight. I wish I’d also mentioned that her skirt was so short every person in the class could see the colour of her underwear. So horrible to deliberately make an innocent person trying to do their job feel so uncomfortable. Vile.

Not you, @Notanotherone6 im agreeing with you!

Girls should not be sexualised and boys should not be vilified. Just went through the same thing with our school - girls are not allowed to wear leggings 🤦‍♀️