What is it with minimising the effects of pregnancy, childbirth and IVF?!

[EL8888]

Fiancé and l managed to get into a big row yesterday about post natal depression and negative effects of IVF. He reckons men get post natal depression. I said they don’t, it’s adjustment disorder, depression and / or anxiety typically. They don’t do the pregnancy and childbirth part after all or big hormonal fluctuations.Don’t get me wrong, l know some women glide through pregnancy and childbirth compared to others but most find it really tough. Im not saying it’s easy for men but l find it hard to believe it’s not easier for the typical man, then the typical woman

Later in the row then he put the boot in saying he was as affected by our 2 rounds of IVF as l was. For the record he: took no drugs, didn’t have any invasive appointments or procedures, didn’t gain 2 stone, didn’t annihilate his sick record at work, didn’t have side effects dismissed or minimised (by the clinic or myself) and didn’t have a ruptured ovarian cyst as a lovely final side effect. He didn’t even want to reduce his caffeine or alcohol intake.

Needless to say we aren’t speaking now. Is this all men or just him? Normally his views are very reasonable but l just can’t get on the same page with all of this

Thats better, now you understand your rightful place!

In all seriousness good luck with getting this sorted, I would really struggle to have a relationship with my husband if he had said something like that about our IVF experience.

I suppose it varies, like just about anything. I know when I took my child into hospital for tests that weren't very nice I cried with him and I wished I could go through it for him and I felt like it would be easier to go through it than watch him go through it. Maybe men feel like that.

At the end of the day I don't see it as a competition, everyone has their feelings.

My husband was a rock after our three babies were born. He loved to hold them, play with them. He didn't mind nappies. He took over the cooking while I fed a baby... no stress. He loved being Dad.

How weird that on a thread on feminism talking about women's pain, that SO MANY posters are talking about men.

Men's pain, men's suffering and now saintly men.

Honestly enough to drive you to hard alcohol.

But what about alcoholism rates in men? That's the important thing about drinking.

You're so right @MrsTerryPratchett

OP, I completely agree with you.

My DH struggled with us having IVF. But it was a mental struggle for him. I was the one dealing (more successfully, as it turns out) with the drugs and procedures and hormones and overstimulated ovaries.

They are two very, very different experiences.

In my ever so humble opinion, post-natal depression is linked to three things - hormones, the birth experience and the situation of having a new baby.

Men don’t experience all of those three things. They don’t have the hormone rollercoaster, they don’t have the physical experience of a birth, and they are less likely to do as much parenting of a newborn as the mother will have to do.

Men can have situational depression specifically linked to the post natal period but it is in no way the same a woman’s experience of post natal depression.

Interesting you should say that.

It reminds me of something I read (and I have searched for links but can’t find them so I hope this rings a bell with someone) about researching men and women.

A female researcher noted that when she researched men, she was commended for her thorough data gather and analysis of the results. When she researched women, hair the comments were along the lines of ‘what about men?’

Just like this thread really.

A female researcher noted that when she researched men, she was commended for her thorough data gather and analysis of the results. When she researched women, hair the comments were along the lines of ‘what about men?’

I’m sorry. I have to start proofreading.

A female researcher noted that when she researched men, she was commended for her thorough data gathering and analysis of the results. When she researched women, —hair— the comments were along the lines of ‘what about men?’

Well the OP specifically asked a question about men so hardly surprising men got mentioned.

Yup. I believe it was a woman who worked in non-profits with men and women. Men's services, she was commended. Women's services, 'what about men?'.

I'm similar. I've spent most of my life working with extremely challenging men (including sex offenders and murderers). Never a peep. But when I suggest anything to do with women's services, it's like this thread.

Women do most of the work with men who need services. But they are always asked why they don't do more. Men are never asked why they aren't setting up and supported women's refuges. Which would make more sense considering who causes the need for them.

Firstly OP I’m really sorry your IVF wasn’t successful.

I agree with your posts completely. It’s incomparable and I don’t understand why men feel the need to muscle in on women’s experiences.

I wouldn’t say my DP enjoyed the IVF process but he certainly found parts of the science interesting. He was naively positive throughout.

I found it a totally different ordeal and felt completely wrung out emotionally and physically by the end of the cycle, despite the fact we had a good result. I do say ‘we’ had to have IVF, but agree that really it’s the woman who has the IVF.

The male suicide rate is 15.3 per 100,000 compared to the female suicide rate of 4.9 per 100,000
Suicide is more prevalent in men than in women. Thats a fact.
Men will never know what women go through, but let's not pretend that men don't also suffer with their mental health.

There is more to this though.

Women attempt suicide more often than men, but men and women tend to choose different methods. Men are more likely to choose more active methods with a higher rate of 'success' for want of a better word.

Also women's rates used to be higher, but some of the more commonly chosen methods have been eliminated (changes to gas supply) or access reduced (smaller pack sizes of paracetamol), over the years.

Why are you trying to have a child with this tosser, more to the point.

You may not have known before you started IVF, but you do now.

For real? You don’t know any men who have had post natal depression totally unrelated to the birth of their child?? Could that be because… it would by definition be something else if it weren’t, you know, post a natal event? Smh
I agree it should be called something else.

i have no words for oh hormones make us forget. Ask me the nitty gritty details about my 1st 2nd and 3rd births. That poster should have to sit through women recounting their birth experiences minute by minute for a week, every waking hour.

@timeisnotaline it’s a pity the shredded bits threads have pretty much died out now (or at least I haven’t seen them in a few years). Very graphic examples of hundreds of women whose hormones did fuck all for pain.
But won’t someone please think of the poor menz going through childbirth.

Thanks @MrsTerryPratchett this is exactly what I was thing of. Do you have a link to the article, by any chance, or any suggestions for Google search words? I haven’t been able to find again.

He's a misogynist, do you really want a baby with him?

For a lot of men their partners pregnancies are going to be the first times in their lives where their needs aren't centered. A lot of men seem to go into it with a "this is OUR SHARED experience" attitude and it's jarring to be told that actually no it's about the mum who is going to be having it a lot worse and need a lot more from you.

Men's mental health can suffer during these events but why can't it be other men who support them through it? What ever happened to that care diagram where you seek care from people further away from the trauma than you?

I dont understand why it has to be this race to the bottom of deciding who has it worse?

Im perhaps in the more unusual situation of having gone through ivf and childbirth myself, and watched my wife also go through it also and been a bystander to her process

All i can say is that they were different experiences. I dont know about better or worse but i would certainly volunteer to have the next lot of ivf and carry rather than watch her.

When i was going through the medical side of ivf, i got wild side effects and felt like shit. However i carried a lot of the emotional burden during hers. There was a lot of pressure to keep the house hold going, and be stoic and unemotional because she was unwell, or had fluctuating emotions. Her head was completely ingulfed in the ivf world, and she was just very fragile. It sort of felt like i wasnt able to talk about being worried or be anything other than a support person. When the first didnt work, i found it hard to express my fears about the pregnancy not looking hopeful (for fear of upsetting her or sounding like i was telling her she was failing at growing the baby), and when she collapsed into the subsequent grief that accompanies it i just sort of had to watch it.

The same applied to childbirth. I had the more medically complicated birth, and while there were certain bits (like the episiotomy stuff!) that are very sharp, lots of the birth details are hazy. At the time i was so focused on what i was doing that i dont remember a lot of what i do for hers. I was much more aware in hers, i used to get nightmares that consisted of the memories of her asking for help and being unable to give it, and of the looks that i saw staff give each other when something looked wrong, and of the agonising bit where the baby was limp while they rubbed her (which i dont even remember happening in my birth, my wife does remember it for me though).

Whilst it was not nice having the physical recovery, i was really tired and frightened but suddenly in charge of my wifes recovery, and supposed to take on more.

I had totally underestimated how powerless i would feel, how frightening watching her would be. Recently one of the kids needed a painful medical procedure and we both came away saying that it reminded us of that feeling of wanting to take it away, trying to look unphased and supportive whilst being very scared.

Its just different, not better or worse

OP, are you sure that your partner is a suitable life partner?

I would feel wary of anyone who minimizes the pain you went through (FFS you blacked out with pain) and is not able to have a nuanced view of everything that you have gone through. It sounds as if he is trying to make your pain and experiences all about him.

@Rheia1983 we are having counselling at the moment, she challenged him about aspects of it which has made him think. When l think was very useful

@Mudblast probably because he had no physical side effects from the drugs, big weight gain, didn’t end up with a ruptured ovarian cyst, no humiliating procedures etc etc. Have you not read the whole thread?!

Your situation isn’t really a comparison: IVF actually worked a few times for you (never worked for us), you are both women and did both roles in it. Plus have you even actually got fertility problems? The fact you are both women isn’t technically fertility issues in my book. Probably inspired by the friend who told us to “try harder” at IVF, when all her and wife had to do was buy some sperm

Do you think a man would have done the ‘keeping the household going’ or be ‘in charge of the OP’s recovery’ when she had a cyst bursting? @Mudblast

i agree that someone who is emotionally available will feel the powerlessness that you are mentioning. I agree this is not easy.
But somehow i think the person is able to empathise and take charge when
their partner is unwell isnt also
the one who will say their experience was as difficult tbh.
its the OP’s dh who started the whole comparaison stuff too….