What is it with minimising the effects of pregnancy, childbirth and IVF?!

[EL8888]

Fiancé and l managed to get into a big row yesterday about post natal depression and negative effects of IVF. He reckons men get post natal depression. I said they don’t, it’s adjustment disorder, depression and / or anxiety typically. They don’t do the pregnancy and childbirth part after all or big hormonal fluctuations.Don’t get me wrong, l know some women glide through pregnancy and childbirth compared to others but most find it really tough. Im not saying it’s easy for men but l find it hard to believe it’s not easier for the typical man, then the typical woman

Later in the row then he put the boot in saying he was as affected by our 2 rounds of IVF as l was. For the record he: took no drugs, didn’t have any invasive appointments or procedures, didn’t gain 2 stone, didn’t annihilate his sick record at work, didn’t have side effects dismissed or minimised (by the clinic or myself) and didn’t have a ruptured ovarian cyst as a lovely final side effect. He didn’t even want to reduce his caffeine or alcohol intake.

Needless to say we aren’t speaking now. Is this all men or just him? Normally his views are very reasonable but l just can’t get on the same page with all of this

Men always have to make it into a competition about how suffers worse.

It's why women get colds and men get flu.

It isn't a race to the bottom. He is unlikely to be as effected as you but why does that matter. He is upset too it IS very upsetting.

It can still be one of the most traumatic experiences he has gone through. The helplessness whatching someone you love in pain an struggling is real. Even worse when you know you have encouraged this and wanted it. His hormones wont be as messed up as yours but that doesn't mean he is OK either.

Be kind to yourself and him. Giving him the silent treatment will help neither of you. Be there for each other rather than pushing him away. Sending hugs 💐

@Sandcastles24 but he didn’t think l was in pain though. He shared the same opinion as the clinic that l was fine. Always interesting when people tell you aren’t in pain. Not sure if anyone on here has had a ruptured ovarian cyst? Spoiler: the paracetamol, fresh air and walk advice weren’t helpful. Morphine is often the level of pain relief given

Its not silent treatment. More that l don’t have anything to say back to him and nothing he says is of interest to me right now

@Sandcastles24 oh and it matters because lm sick of my feelings being minimised

He’s not been kind to me, so why should l be kind back

That's awful, he should advocate for you not against you when you need help

I hate when men centre themselves around the birth period (conception to beyond postnatal). Assisted by the ‘what about the menzzzzzz’ women.
Male mental health is an issue in general but there are no comparisons to what females go through during this.

Ah beautiful ruptured ovarian cysts, pretty sure its a similar pain to someone slicing through a mans testicle without anaesthetic, maybe he could see if paracetamol some fresh air and a walk would help him in that case...

Of course he is affected by the experience. But in a completely different way to yours and then maybe it should have it's own name. It should be acknowledged. Men tended to be put to the side and we ignored their MH issues. That's wrong. But they shouldn't step on the issues of the women trying to/getting pregnant.

For example, you can't say that the partner or children of someone with cancer can't have MH issues as a result of their loved one being ill 🤷🏻‍♀️

@grey12 but my point is from his logic, he’s just as affected as the person with the cancer

I've been through IVF - I say I because as far as I'm concerned all DH had to do was wank in a cup for 5 minutes whilst perusing porn of his choice provided by the clinic. I'm not minimising the experience for him because quite frankly there is nothing to minimise. In terms of effect on his MH it wasn't him on tenterhooks waiting for updates from embryology or sat in waiting rooms for hours stressing about how big follicles were and how many. I don't think the IVF experience in terms of male vs female experience can anyway be compared (@EL8888 mY DH would be under the patio before he finished the sentence if he even dared suggest it)

Post birth of a child though I do accept that men male experience some form of post natal depression but it isn't the same. i think for men the struggle is that they are basically surplus to requirements post birth - they have this noisy expensive little person who takes up time and energy and sleep and money. The father is packed off back to work after 2 weeks and expected to carry the family financially whilst coping with this massive life changing event with none of the maternal post natal hormones to see them through

Acknowledging both the dangers of pregnancy and child birth and the changes these cause to a woman’s body goes against the interests of those who wish to push the commodification of women’s bodies which is why there is big trend in pushing pregnancy and child birth as no big deal.

OP your body has been changed at a cellular level because of your pregnancy and through giving birth, some of these changes are temporary and some are permanent. Your DH’s experience of fatherhood will never be tied to his biology in the way motherhood is tied to a woman’s biology and he is being a selfish prick to try and argue that he is affected by parenthood in the same way as you are - he can’t be it is in your very physiology!

I find it a bit sad that this has become a competition. Actually a lot of men find seeing their loved ones going through all that pain very traumatic.

It took DH a long time to get over what I went through whereas I (lucky me, I know) got the immediate happy baby hormones when DS was born. He did not. He is a fantastic father and supportive, caring man.

No they don’t have the same experience at all and it won’t be hormone linked in the same way and some can easily be shit and not involved at all, but let’s not minimised men’s mental health. It’s like some people want toxic masculinity to continue.

Considering men are also a higher risk of suicide doenst mean it’s not a big deal either. Yes post-natal depression happens to men. In fact all the men I’ve known who’ve had it have had it after the birth of their child.

For example, you can't say that the partner or children of someone with cancer can't have MH issues as a result of their loved one being ill 🤷🏻‍♀️

In the case cancer, you can hardly say that the partner is experiencing THE SAME anguish, anxiety and fear as the person who has cancer.

I mean would you really be able to look at someone dying of cancer and tell them that things are just as hard for you???

@SilverCatStripes IVF has never worked for me so no pregnancy changes. The 2 stone weight gain was a “freeby” from the IVF

Well I'm not sure when else they could claim to have it other than after the birth of their child if they are calling it post natal depression

@amigreedytowantmore yeah all he had to do was wank into a cup, he even moaned about the standard of the porn. He didn’t even have to pay for half of the 1st round as the NHS paid. We don’t have a patio but l have wanted one at the end of the garden, to catch the evening sun…

YANBU. I think some men do think this way. I wonder what the overlap is between these men and the men who take up seats in maternity unit waiting rooms while pregnant women have to stand? Interesting thought. Maybe they think they're entitled to a seat because they're "pregnant" too...

Acknowledging the physical experience of women is not minimising men's mental heath. We need to respect women as a biological entity. We also need to recognise that men experience emotional reactions to IVF and childbirth. These things are not either/ or

The issue I have is the fact that what was something purely female, something experienced by women after going through pregnancy and birth is somehow highjacked by men.
PND is really particular and is often coming from a mix of hormone changes, the tiredness from pg and giving birth as well as the mental and emotional upheaval from having a baby in the house.

I don’t think that whatever mental and emotional struggles men experience after becoming fathers should be under the same name, simply because the causes are different.

Just like a woman who struggles after a particularly awful birth isn’t suffering form PND but from PTSD iyswim.

Some experiences are specifically female. They have particular name. I think we should keep those words for those female experiences for women.
If men need a word to describe their own experience during that time, then we can still create one.

OP's partner disagrees that the impact of IVF is greater on women than men because we have to have hormone treatment and invasive procedures.

And a load of posters decry the lack of care for men's mental health.

On the fucking feminism board.

Every time the bar is set lower for men. You'd have to be a worm to limbo under it.

This was our experience DH was really quite traumatised, to the extent he wasn't sure he could do it again. Hormones do help women forget the pain of childbirth. I was completely loved up DH found it difficult to get over. Different strokes...

This, 100%.

We should be content we have the hormones to 'forget the pain of childbirth'. I'm sure women are so grateful when they're suffering the ongoing effects of episiotomies and 4th degree tears. Poor traumatised men 🙄

@Goodskin46 - perhaps you should read all the OP's posts before asking us to feel sorry for your 'traumatised' husband.

Spoiler: she doesn't have any children.

This is the feminism board. Please have the courtesy to treat the women who post on it with respect before you bleat about men.

Agree entirely with both posts.

And the problem with saying 'It's not a competition. We should think about the men too' is that maternity and post-natal care for women is pretty much in the gutter at the moment. In childbirth, as in other areas of health, women are routinely ignored, their extreme pain and their pressing physical needs disregarded and their dignity disrespected. Women and babies are frequently dying in labour as a result of the lack of prioritisation of women's needs (and this is just a reflection of other areas of the health system, where women are discriminated against). Treatment for incontinence, prolapse and other horrific birth injuries is often woefully inadequate. And on top of this, many women routinely carry the majority of the burden of caring for the new baby as partners fail to pull their weight. In a world of limited resources, it feels very much like these issues should be addressed first.