What is it with minimising the effects of pregnancy, childbirth and IVF?!

[EL8888]

Fiancé and l managed to get into a big row yesterday about post natal depression and negative effects of IVF. He reckons men get post natal depression. I said they don’t, it’s adjustment disorder, depression and / or anxiety typically. They don’t do the pregnancy and childbirth part after all or big hormonal fluctuations.Don’t get me wrong, l know some women glide through pregnancy and childbirth compared to others but most find it really tough. Im not saying it’s easy for men but l find it hard to believe it’s not easier for the typical man, then the typical woman

Later in the row then he put the boot in saying he was as affected by our 2 rounds of IVF as l was. For the record he: took no drugs, didn’t have any invasive appointments or procedures, didn’t gain 2 stone, didn’t annihilate his sick record at work, didn’t have side effects dismissed or minimised (by the clinic or myself) and didn’t have a ruptured ovarian cyst as a lovely final side effect. He didn’t even want to reduce his caffeine or alcohol intake.

Needless to say we aren’t speaking now. Is this all men or just him? Normally his views are very reasonable but l just can’t get on the same page with all of this

I am just stating that some women do not find that pregnancy and child birth effect their mental health negatively. Some men find the process difficult. Is that really so controversial ? It has nothing to do with episiotomies. Nobody is denying women's physical experience.

Hormones do help women forget the pain of childbirth.

Weird that so many women end up with PTSD then. Since we all magically forget. I bloody haven't forgotten.

Yeah there weren't any hormones helping me through IVF, far from it they made it worse.

I'm fairly certain there weren't any hormones helping the op with her invasive tests, injections, procedures, ruptured cysts etc. Yet still her partner thinks his experience was just as bad when all he had to do was wank into a cup.

So not really the same thing

Maybe just maybe on a feminism board a woman can say that she thinks IVF was worse for her than her partner and people wont lecture us on how men have it worse.

I don't think anyone can afford that men endure the physical effects of TTC, IVF, pregnancy, labour, birth etc and all the associated hormonal changes that come with it HOWEVER men can and do suffer from postnatal depression, it may be less common than in women and definitely less recognised but just because you don't want to acknowledge that it's a real thing doesn't mean it isn't.
It IS an accepted illness in men, do some research and open your mind to accept that some things are factual whether or not you want them to be.

@Maybee21 I could accept a diagnosis like pseudo postnatal depression or secondary postnatal depression. But straight postnatal depression is hard no. I don’t need to “open my mind”. It’s my ability to question things that don’t let me accept this as gospel that has led me to this. I’m not saying men don’t find it hard or have their mental health challenged as they do experience that. But they haven’t been pregnant, given birth or had massive hormonal fluctuations so that triggers an exclusion criteria for me

Ditto about the IVF part. I have never said or inferred he was living life or doing cartwheels. I know he wasn’t happy. But the whole thing was way more visceral, painful and challenging for me

No they don't. They CAN suffer from adjustment disorder, which is a recognised issue and in the DSM.

PND (and anxiety, psychosis and the antenatal versions) can have a different (physical and hormonal) cause and should therefore not be conflated. Just because the NHS and others confuse and conflate the two, doesn't mean we should.

Both sexes can get adjustment disorder without PND being a diagnosis. Only women can get PND.

@WatermelonSugarSigh you’re a terrible woman as your hormones didn’t sort that for you. But poor men!!!!

@Covidagainandagain this has been rather a depressing thread overall. Maybe l should forward some posters contact details to my fiancé. Hopefully they give him the necessary support and TLC he requires. That me the heartless selfish harlot has denied him

@MrsTerryPratchett funnily enough l floated adjustment disorder to my fiancé but that enraged him

That's not all you were stating. You said that Hormones do help women forget the pain of childbirth. which is a massive unhelpful generalisation. Others are saying men get PND which IS denying women's physical experience. Nothing controversial about saying that some men find pregnancy and childbirth of their partner difficult.

@Covidagainandagain PS yeah next time he’s in extreme pain l will suggest paracetamol, fresh and a walk. Whether its shoulder dislocation, compound fracture or mangled testicles! Annoyingly l have a high pain threshold so why did he doubt it so much? E.g. l once went to the dentist and he asked why l wasn’t running round the room screaming?! Im like the area is a little tingly so l know there is something but not in pain and no pain relief used

Why? Just because he wants to colonise womanhood? I believe outbursts of anger are one of the symptoms...

@Clymene a worm bar is too high. Im more thinking a piece or tracing paper laid down flat!

"We are pregnant"

🙄

@MrsTerryPratchett at one point l said can women have nothing that is theirs, without men getting in on it? He just stared at me

Oh god this makes me 🤢

Op i am not surprised you are enraged with him. How dare he try to take away your experience like that. It shows a total lack of awareness and it would concern me that he would also highjack your postnatal experience as well.

I had PND. Badly. It lasted for years. H also struggled, but literally never would he attempt to say that his experience was the exact same as mine. How could it be anything alike ?

I think some men just can't cope with the fact that female centred care is not about them

Because so much of life is male centred, or has historically been male centred, they just don't know how to cope, where as women are generally better at coping with male centred care because we are more used to a male centric set up.

The first time one of my ovarian cysts ruptured I thought my appendix had ruptured. The pain went down my leg so sharply I collapsed and had to be helped to a chair so I imagine going to a walk would not be pleasant. I have a high pain threshold as well and if someone had suggested a paracetamol and some fresh air I would have told them to fuck off to be honest.

Nobody is denying women's physical experience.

Actually @Goodskin46 yes saying that men experience PND IS denying Women physical experience - seeing that particular type of depression is linked both with hormones and the birth experience.

And when the OP’s DP says he was as affected by the 2 rounds of IVF as she was, he is denying the physical impact if IVF on the OP. What he is saying is the physical experience of going through IVF is so negligible that you dint need to take it into account.

So I’d say that yes. The whole point of this thread is that using words such as PND for men is opening the door to denying women’s physical experience.

@Covidagainandagain l can see how that happened. I ended up blacking out and face planting the bathroom floor. He then had to extract me out of a very small bathroom -our old house had a weird layout and the toilet / bathroom used to be a cupboard

You only ended up blacking out? Well what are you making a fuss about, I'm sure he's had much worse pain from a paper cut... 🙄

@Covidagainandagain sorry, good point. I stand corrected, l “only” blacked out. His paper cut in 1994 or toe stub in 2002 MUST have begun way worse!