What is it with minimising the effects of pregnancy, childbirth and IVF?!

[EL8888]

Fiancé and l managed to get into a big row yesterday about post natal depression and negative effects of IVF. He reckons men get post natal depression. I said they don’t, it’s adjustment disorder, depression and / or anxiety typically. They don’t do the pregnancy and childbirth part after all or big hormonal fluctuations.Don’t get me wrong, l know some women glide through pregnancy and childbirth compared to others but most find it really tough. Im not saying it’s easy for men but l find it hard to believe it’s not easier for the typical man, then the typical woman

Later in the row then he put the boot in saying he was as affected by our 2 rounds of IVF as l was. For the record he: took no drugs, didn’t have any invasive appointments or procedures, didn’t gain 2 stone, didn’t annihilate his sick record at work, didn’t have side effects dismissed or minimised (by the clinic or myself) and didn’t have a ruptured ovarian cyst as a lovely final side effect. He didn’t even want to reduce his caffeine or alcohol intake.

Needless to say we aren’t speaking now. Is this all men or just him? Normally his views are very reasonable but l just can’t get on the same page with all of this

He might have been affected emotionally by the IVF but:

He is unlikely to be as affected emotionally because he didn't have all those IVF hormones kicking in and impacting his emotions
He wasn't affected physically

Men might be affected emotionally after having a baby but:

They are unlikely to be as affected emotionally because they dont have all those pregnancy hormones kicking in and impacting their emotions
They aren't affected physically

But yeah he's unreasonable if he thinks he gets to say he was as affected by IVF as you whilst completely ignoring all of the various impacts it had on you.

My DH was as affected by our IVF failing emotionally, but thats probably the only part of it where he would say he was as affected

sorry didn't mean to quote your post there, I'm was on autopilot hitting reply

It's not all men. I joke that DH used to go on and on about a terrible leg injury he had for hours. He loved telling the story of how brave and strong he is.

After seeing me induced and in labour for days, he never mentioned it again. He was completely in awe. Particularly as I'm a wimp generally.

Is your DH a bit of a elevenerife type generally? Is he always more sick than you with a bug?

here we go again minimising mens mental health , as women we are desperate for everyone to understand us , understand how WE feel , how WE hurt, how much WE have been through ect . while at the same time giving zero fucks about anyone else's thoughts or feelings. it's a big deal becoming a father something us women could never understand the way men could never understand becoming a mother, when are we going to realise that man , woman , unicorn , we all have feelings and emotions and noones trumps another .

Not minimising men's MH, but properly acknowledging women's MH.

"they found that suicide accounted for 5.3% (51 of 966) of perinatal deaths, or approximately 1 out of every 19 deaths in pregnant or postpartum women during that time period. Perinatal women most frequently completed suicide at 9 to 12 months postpartum. Women who completed perinatal suicide were more likely to do so by lethal methods, like hanging, jumping, or falling, compared to women who completed suicide outside of the perinatal period."

PND kills women. It's a leading cause of death in the post-partum period (an already dangerous time for women).

No one is saying women's feeling trump mens though? It's quite right to say that men don't get postnatal depression in the same way that women do. The OP has articulated very clearly all of the impacts of IVF on her that her partner did not have to endure. It's not minimising men's feelings, it's saying that in circumstances unique to female biology, they do not have to deal with the same impacts.

And it's an incresing risk to women.

www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/pregnancy-and-postpartum-suicide-risk-the-new-numbers

The male suicide rate is 15.3 per 100,000 compared to the female suicide rate of 4.9 per 100,000

Suicide is more prevalent in men than in women. Thats a fact.

Men will never know what women go through, but let's not pretend that men don't also suffer with their mental health.

Suicide is more prevalent in men than in women. Thats a fact.

In the post partum period?

And men actually don't attempt suicide much more than women. They just succeed more because they use more lethal methods. Which is exactly what women do in the post partum period.

Are women really not allowed to talk about women's MH on a feminist board on a site call Mumsnet? Can we talk about it very quietly in a hole, in a dark wood, while no one else listens? Would that be OK?

@Covidagainandagain all this! I didn’t even mention the remembering to and inserting drugs into various orifices

@MrsTerryPratchett he’s not normally an Elevenerife no? Maybe with hangovers he goes on more about it and is capable of doing less but that’s it. This is what makes this more confusing

@bg21 l wasn’t minimising it but lm saying that it’s not the same.

Men will never know what women go through, but let's not pretend that men don't also suffer with their mental health.

Once again, no one is saying that, but the OP wanted to discuss the circumstances that are unique to female biology (which are clear from the OP's thread title)- men do not suffer the same physical or psychological impacts of these uniquely female experiences because it isn't physically possible.

@MrsTerryPratchett well, quite. I picked this board for quite specific reasons! I didn’t bother with AIBU as lm not being unreasonable and this board seemed more appropriate

Fuck that. Men cannot get postpartum depression, just like they can’t get postpartum haemorrhages, or antenatal depression just as they can’t have gestational diabetes or other antenatal complications.

Men can suffer from depression, anxiety, PTSD and all other mental health conditions, and these can be in relation to adjusting to the idea of becoming a father, or the reality of being a father. But this is not the same as PPD/PND/AND etc. Men and women are different and our experiences are different.

I won’t argue that suicide rates are higher with men. That they can struggle with their MH etc…

However, the sample that this particular man has chosen to show hard things have been for him are utterly rubbish.
IVF is absolutely and utterly awful for women. It carry an increase risk of cancer too. It’s the effect of hormones, the injections, the procedures etc etc

So yes men have to deal with emotional side of IVF or becoming a father. They do NOT have to deal with the physical side of pregnancy or IVF drugs. And the effect that those have in MH too.
Dismissing those as negligible to be able to make the point that ‘they found it hard too’ is not ok.

I don't think it's minimising mens mh problems as a pp said, it's acknowledging that women do have separate health issues whilst TTC/pregnant or post partum as a result of all the hormones going about in your system and men cannot have the same health problems as a result and it's actually minimising womens mh by suggesting men also suffer as women do in these situations.

I had terrible post partum psychosis. Pretty sure my dh didn't feel like I did, it was down to my hormones and wayyy out of my control.

I don't think this is soleley related to IVF. I had an awful pregnancy, dts had surgery in utero, followed by APH and placental abruption, both born not breathing at 31 weeks, I had teams of people looking up and feeling up my vag for weeks on end, the surgery happened to me, we all nearly died. Yes it was shit for him but it was more shit for me and I am still dealing with it.

Anyone can suffer mental health issues, and yes male suicide rates are higher but they are not dealing with the physical effects pf pregnancy / childbirth / IVF as well.

Is t it funny how it’s still women who carry all the mental load when it comes to IVF too??
And this happens EVEN WHEN the issue is a male factor! It’s women who change their diet, go for acupuncture, read the research, blogs and forum. It’s women who inject themselves and have to keep tabs on what’s going on and what they should do. It’s women who end up on the table, legs apart.
Men get to ejaculate. And if their sperm isn’t good enough, they are told it’s ok. They’ll do ICSI instead.

(not saying this was your case here @EL8888 )

I work in housing. The VAST majority of the MH workers, nurses, SWs, housing workers, trauma counsellors, volunteers, outreach etc. are female. If men did the same volume of work, I'd hazard a guess that male MH wouldn't be in the parlous state it's in. Women are already dealing with male MH, can we have a little chat about our own health?

Pretty please?

This!!!!

The MRAs and handmaidens are out in force.

Maybe we should all decamp to Reddit or Kiwi Farms or some other male-dominated website and talk about it. I'm so sure the men there would be all over women's MH since everyone here is all over men's.

I do broadly agree with you, the hormones obviously don’t affect men, or the physical side effects etc.

Having had IVF and given birth though I am happy to be the woman. I think there are very separate and different challenges for men around feeling powerless, watching and not being able to do anything, not feeling as connected.

And with IVF yes all the bloke needs to do is ejaculate in a cup. Wouldn’t fancy it myself though. Your partner is gowned up and off to theatre, if you could just quickly have an orgasm on demand please. I was never worried I wasn’t going to manage to do my bit that should be easy. It’s not the same but I think men have very different challenges.

You have obviously been through a lot and the toll on you is clearly different to your DH and I don’t think they’re the same.

@SingingInParadise it was basically that!

Oh no the poor man!!!