Amber Heard&Johnny Depp verdict

[Miscfeminista]

Continuation of previous thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552076-amber-heardjohnny-depp-trial?page=36&reply=117586863

Speculations on verdict, news related to it, insights into specifics of legal matters, opinions and impressions…let’s keep it going and see how verdict finds us >>>>>>>>>>

There is also in my mind, a big difference between a nagging and abusive wife who has a mouth like a sailor and is loud and abusive on a recording, to a larger, stronger man (women are more vulnerable) doing the same but add in smashing up rooms and headbutting. At the bare minimum. I think lies or not, Depp still comes out looking far worse because of the sheer strength and threat he as a man poses. His bite can be worse than his bark. Whereas with Heard, her bark is worse than her bite. She never had the power he does.

@carolineshaw

The judge did acccept the rape claim. From the judgment:

"I have also accepted the further allegation in the confidential annexe regarding this incident".

WRT covering injuries/appearance of injuries this is not the realm of fantasy. I actually find that quite insulting. Maybe you could look at this twitter thread:

mobile.twitter.com/DerekMYoung/status/1528266801930334208

And the photo attached to this post.

I'm also including a picture of the print edition of Depp's Rolling Stone interview in which he admits to his most recent assault (the online version has been changed). There's a statement from the plaintiff in that case saying he finds the story about Depp intervening on behalf of a black homeless woman particularly hurtful as he had a period of homelessness in the past and was partly raised by an African American foster carer.
There are other assaults which are public record as well.

To address some other points, I don't accept that the statement about the donation is a lie. It's quite accepted make donations like that over a period of time.
I do actually think the Hicksville guy is dodgy, if you look at some of his past reviews he actually sounds quite scary. And he follows a Depp fan account on Twitter.

I have no idea about Whitney and Amber, it sounds like they had a very dysfunctional childhood and maybe they've had good and bad times in their relationship. Third parties relating what they recall Whitney saying isn't conclusive either way for me, things get too distorted.

I know one lot of police lied about how long they were in the apartment, as shown by CCTV and the island manager got caught out saying she'd never seen Depp passed out (in fact she and Depp's son had found him on the beach passed out).

Lastly, we could talk about reactive abuse but I think that's probably a bit nuanced given your stance overall.

IrisVersicolor · Today 16:41

"Sorry @carolineshaw I find your post weak and unconvincing. It’s just a limp apologia for Depp."

No, it's nothing to do with Johnny. It's a realistic appraisal of Amber and why she lost.

"You avoided the point about Pennington vs Hicksville man as to who was more likely be reliable, and fell back on ‘oh but Heard lied’ which wasn’t the question."

On the contrary, I addressed it directly. We have two witnesses who claimed to see different things. We have to decide who is more believable. Rocky is a connection of Amber's whereas the guy is not really a connection of Johnny's. Amber's team tried to paint him as a fan. It wasn't very convincing. What didn't help Amber is that Rocky also contradicted Amber's own testimony later on.

"Barkin said a lot more than jealous. She said he was ‘jealous.. controlling.. drunk a lot of the time..always drinking or smoking a joint..”"

You can be all of those things, jealous, controlling, drunk and a pot head and still not be a wife beater or a rapist. Amber has issues with drugs and alcohol herself. Barkin didn't say he hit her. No woman other than Amber has said he hit her. That doesn't mean he didn't hit her but it doesn't help her case.

Going down that route wasn't especially wise for Amber as she has had an arrest for DV whereas all of Johnny's previous wives/girlfriends spoke in glowing terms of him with the exception of Barkin who still didn't say he was violent to her. Again that isn't evidence he wasn't abusive to Amber but it certainly weakens her case. It's just one of many things which tipped the scales in his favour.

He admitted he headbutted her in the recordings.
His text messages are violent and misogynistic.
He has a history of smashing things about.
^^
Didn't he 'claim' it was an accident- in retaliation to dh lashing out?
During an argument when she got physical??

This. It's so frustrating because I could see the emotion from Rocky and Io. They never wanted to get dragged into all this and they've both had abuse from the public as a result, but their testimony felt completely genuine. I don't know how you just dismiss that, I really don't. If he behaved the way they describe and Amber's injuries were as they testified there is a 100% chance Depp is an abuser. So it's like they just get ignored? Or the whole conspiracy theory is trotted out which I'm sorry is just SO ridiculous.

Most of Depp's witnesses amount to 'not seeing' or 'not recalling' things, which I'm sure is true in some instances at least, but that doesn't disprove Amber's witnesses' testimonies at all.

Yes but only after the recording was unearthed in court in the UK. Up to that point he said it never happened.

You can be all of those things, jealous, controlling, drunk and a pot head and still not be a wife beater or a rapist.

You can't be all those things and not be abusive though.

Regarding Hicksville why did AH not call the girl that had her wrist grabbed by JD as a witness?
Why did she not call her publicist and good friend, Lisa Gotlieb, who was with her when she went to get her TRO?

Both of these would be key witnesses for her surely?

Heard admitting to hitting Depp doesn't mean she also wasn't hit or abused. DV cases are often notoriously complicated. In many DV cases, the relationship is so dysfunctional that both hit, scream and throw things at each other. Just because the wife fights back and 'gives as good as she gets' doesn't mean she isn't abused. There is often abuse on BOTH sides. I find it strange that people think that Heard is the only abuser and Depp is innocent. Abused women fight and hit back. It doesn't negate the fact that they are abused.

All of this.

Depp admitted to grabbing the woman's wrist. I don't know why they weren't called - can they be forced to testify? If not then I can imagine they didn't want to be dragged into it. Would you like to be cross-examined about your drug taking in front of the whole world?

No, of course not but we are discussing credibility. AH appeared less credible to the jury, that lack of credibility was not offset by sufficient evidence from third parties supporting her claims.

A witness who appears not credible may well be able to succeed in persuading a judge/jury of their allegation if they produce sufficient supporting evidence. In a case where the vast majority of allegations cannot be substantiated, credibility is vital.

You can be all of those things, jealous, controlling, drunk and a pot head and still not be a wife beater or a rapist.

You can't be all those things and not be abusive though.

<span class="italic">^</span><span class="italic">^</span>
No one is disputing that. 
They were 2 damaged people who never should have been together. 
Doesn't make him a wife beater and a rapist. 
That's the bit that lost jd his film roles and what the trail was about. 
Not some nasty texts.

Exactly.
Being accused of rape is far worse than being raped, so a woman can't prove it, it didn't happen.
Oh,and proof means a fully witnessed piece of evidence, preferably provided via the police. Otherwise those lying women will just get away with destroying mens careers.

Ok. We're talking at cross purposes if you think I'm suggesting this is about nasty texts. I accept the evidence of physical abuse.

I'm also pointing out that jealousy, controlling behaviour, property destruction, general rage issues also 'count' as abuse and fit the profile of someone who could easily resort to violence if that control is challenged, or jealousy is triggered. Especially coupled with his known history of assault.

No, it's nothing to do with Johnny. It's a realistic appraisal of Amber and why she lost

If you re-read that post it’s simply a list of excuses for Depp.

Your attempt to address Pennington vs Hicksville was not to say that you found one more convincing then the other, simply that Pennington was a friend of Heard and Heard lied, and that apparently is that.

In fact she was a friend of both Heard and Depp.

Are you saying that Pennington told barefaced lies in court? If so say so.

You can be all of those things, jealous, controlling, drunk and a pot head and still not be a wife beater or a rapist

You can, but in this case his ex wife says he was.

Heard does not have an arrest for DV there is no crime of DV.

Two exes spoke up for him, one against. Two other exes - not called to give evidence have said he used to smash places up and get into fights. He also had a list of ex agent, manager, friends who testified against him.

Whether he hit other partners is not actually the point: the issue is whether he hit this one.

In his forthcoming trial for assault, surely you can see that all the people who might testify he didn’t hit them, is not relevant to the case of the man that he did hit?

*Your attempt to address Pennington vs Hicksville was not to say that you found one more convincing then the other, simply that Pennington was a friend of Heard and Heard lied, and that apparently is that.

In fact she was a friend of both Heard and Depp.

Are you saying that Pennington told barefaced lies in court? If so say so.*

I think the key point on this is that, when faced with two contrary accounts of events, the jury preferred one account over the other. Again, the credibility of those individuals will, I suspect, have impacted on that decision.

That’s what it comes down to - that she would have been more credible if other people had witnessed the abuse.

That’s not particular to this case - it’s true of domestic and sexual abuse general.

I agree @IrisVersicolor and I think it's bizarre that all the focus is on whether Amber lied about things like leaking a video which isn't anything to do with whether the abuse happened, and not on whether Depp has lied (which we know he has) and his obviously abusive mindset and behaviours.

The key point at issue, was what @carolineshaw made of those two accounts - that was the question I asked her.

But to take it at face value, are you really arguing that Hicksville man was telling the truth and Pennington was lying her face off? If so can you provide any evidence or even a rationale for this.

I think the key point on this is that, when faced with two contrary accounts of events, the jury preferred one account over the other. Again, the credibility of those individuals will, I suspect, have impacted on that decision.

I accept that. I think her credibility was damaged by some things which were peripheral to the domestic violence claims, but the evidence, to me, still shows that she was abused.

I think its going to be interesting to see if his career gets back on track.

Lying is about credibility though in a case

I keep seeing lists from people re AH but just that Depp lied, without specifics

In your view what were the top things Depp said in the trial that undermined his case?

I looked at the link below but it was hard to follow

It is an issue in all cases not civil and criminal that rely on witness evidence.

Unfortunately, I don't see an easy solution to the issue because people do regularly lie about their culpability during trials and therefore credibility is, and will remain fundamental to decision making by judges and juries.

It is a lot, I would say too much, to ask either a judge or a jury to blindly accept the evidence of an individual when significant aspects of their testimony has been discredited.

His version of what happened to his finger is not consistent with his injury

He calls himself a southern gentleman who respects women when his texts show him calling them things like extortionate cunt

He did not admit the full extent of his drinking/drugs use until evidence showed otherwise

He says he never called himself the monster until evidence showed otherwise

Lots of contradictions between his UK and US testimony - they can't both be true

But mainly, saying he's not abusive but admitting to headbutting Amber, bashing her toes with the door, smashing their kitchen, writing obscenities about her in his own blood from his severed finger, telling her she's irrelevant and invisible, that she has no right to say anything to him.

That's all abuse.

@IrisVersicolor

It doesn't matter who I think lied or on what basis, the jury heard the evidence of both together with any supporting evidence and, it seems likely, preferred the evidence of Hicksville over that of Pennington.