Can you be feminist if you're in a traditional female role?

[gandalf456]

Background - I have 2 teenagers, I am a carer for my elderly mum and I work in an unskilled, low paid job (almost) part time - i.e 5 days a week but 28 hour shift work wrapped around my responsibilities. My husband works 12 hour days. I do most of the work re home and family.

My issue is that I have been on the receiving end of some disparaging comments in the past - ironically, other women seem to be the worst. It's mostly related to the fact that I don't have a career in spite of having had a good education.

My stance is that I don’t want to do the juggle. I feel stretched to the limit as it is. The idea of having a highly responsible job on top feels too much.

However, I do value myself and what I do. I might not have high status or money. I work hard in the job I have and have good relationships with mý children and mum.

There is more to me as a woman and a person than this, right? Do I have to have a career to be respected by other women? I don't see myself as selling out. I'm just doing what works for me

@Kudupoo

I am a woman and I wasn't more of a feminist when I was working to allow DH to care, and less of a feminist when DH worked more and I had caring responsibilities. Who does what is a feminist question but it doesn't have one right feminist answer in terms of what, it's more to do with why. OP is no more 'financially dependent on a man' than her DH is 'domestically dependent' on a woman. She's educated and in work, if her DH disappeared she'd find a way to financially support herself. Likewise if she disappeared, her DH would have to find a way to meet the care needs of his dependents and himself. Contributing money doesn't inherently have a higher value to a family or society than contributing care. The higher earner isn't always the one doing the 'favour' or the 'supporting'.

You’ve put this so well

@Twicklette

I suppose I am older and I do know a lot of friends from university who never went back to work after having children and justify it in all kinds of ways. There are women who claim it is feminist to rely on their husbands for financial support. I don't see it like that. I do remember that my mother's GP said her good health and full mental capacity well into her nineties was down to working until seventy and then doing lots of childcare for grand children. Women are sadly much more likely to develop dementia than men which some scientists have put down to not working outside the home. Believe me, there are lots and lots of older women who don't work and don't drive and rely on their husbands for so much support. I am hugely fortunate in that my husband does lots of diy, house maintenance and gardening for my elderly mother but then I did lots for his parents at the end of their lives and we both worked full time. I am convinced that working and being financially independent is so important for women ( and it is a bonus if it helps stave off dementia). Trying to justify women being so dependent on men is such a backward step. It is harking back to post war years and the little woman at home. Women who try and validate not working and being dependent on their partners is not feminism and not the future.

Dh and I do what suits both of us and our family and part of that is putting value and respect on the unpaid as well as the paid work. However our actual fairly traditional set up would probably not fit in to your narrative of being ‘ the right way’ we should live our lives

I think it’s sad that so many posters on here are having a pop at SAHM and carers.
Talking about women being happy to let the man do “all the work” as though the work that a SAHM does, or a carer is not “work” because it’s not paid. The idea that the woman is reliant on the man to work - not that the this can be an agreement between two people that is the best solution and works well - with both providing something of value within the family.
I am a SAHM. It was not really planned. I worked into my 40s, my last job in the charity sector and much much less pay than my husband. My 1st child has autism. Neither of us had parents that could help with childcare, my wages would barely cover paid childcare, nor did I think it was the best for DC’s needs - and I know my particular child has benefitted hugely from me being at home. Providing good childcare is hugely skilful in my view. It is hard, exhausting, endlessly challenging. It IS work, and it IS valuable. Even if it’s not paid.

It was an arrangement we agreed on, and my DH was actually hugely relieved because he was worried about our DC. I know not everyone has that choice, but we did. I’m able to get all house stuff sorted during the week to keep weekends free for us. I’m also able to keep up with my DCs schoolwork, I gave him 1-1 help throughout GCSEs, decorate the house when needed, we can have dogs which would be impossible if we both worked full-time. And yes, when my mum died, I was able to be main carer for my dad until he died.
I have also always helped working friends with ad hoc childcare/dog care when needed, including pre school care for a child in the mornings for 3 years.
I know a few other SAHMs. One does all the work needed on the house - including laying floorboards, plumbing, decorating and DIY. The other does a lot of her own dressmaking and voluntary community work. I don’t know any SAHM who meets friends for lunch most days, or spends her mornings doing yoga.

It’s not my fault that I ended up in a job that paid less than my husband - so the only sensible choice was for me, not my DH to be the SAH carer. We did the best thing based on our circumstances. We have a joint bank account and it is our money. Yes, it’s not perfect. I realise it’s problematic for a woman to not earn her own money. I had lived with DH for about 12 years before we had children, so I felt confident it would work. And it has- for over 16 yrs.
I am a feminist and I respect women for the choices they make.

Talking about women being happy to let the man do “all the work” as though the work that a SAHM does, or a carer is not “work” because it’s not paid

Its seemingly OK to pay another part time working woman or a woman on a low wage using nurseries and cleaners though.

Its ok fir those women to do all that. as long as it's someone else. Not them.

@Twicklette

But this thread is not about a woman caring for young children. It is about an older woman not working so she can care for her elderly mother. I am sure she has lots of hobbies as well and opportunities to socialise. These threads always get turned into the same old trope about 'menz', such a patronising term, not looking after young children. It is not about that. It is about a woman trying to validate not working and being financially supported by her husband so that she can stay at home and visit her mum. It sounds a lovely arrangement and I am sure that many women envy her lifestyle. You cannot sell it as feminism. It is a transactional arrangement as old as society, part of the patriarchy. In return for childbearing and rearing children, the poster is free from the tyranny of work. So many women are fighting to be seen as financially independent and holding down responsible jobs. In return, one hopes that men are given the opportunity to step up and do their share of childcare alongside work. Feminism is about equality for all and not pigeon holing men and women into the same old roles and throwing around abusive expressions like 'menz'. It is not about calling a man who tries to care for his elderly parents a 'mummy's boy'.

Whoa! That couldn't be further from the truth. I work 30 hours per week in an unskilled job. I rarely socialise - partly due to the hours I work and partly because my mum and kids take up a lot of time. My youngest is falling behind at school and displaying attention seeking behaviour. The eldest suffers from severe anxiety on and off. I am not just visiting Mum and having a nice chat over coffee. I'm picking up medication, helping her with paperwork and bills. I'm taking her to multiple medical appointments (last week I counted 3 - oh, and my sister took her to 1 because she works full time i.e. 40 hours, not 30). She has dementia and has forgotten how to use appliances in the home properly so keeps ringing to say they're broken . Our conversations can be repetitive and occasionally delusional. I can get several phone calls about the same thing in 1 day because she has forgotten. The ones that are saying I could do better are the ones who are refusing to help. I wish I did have time for a fucking yoga class

Whoa! That couldn't be further from the truth. I work 30 hours per week in an unskilled job. I rarely socialise - partly due to the hours I work and partly because my mum and kids take up a lot of time. My youngest is falling behind at school and displaying attention seeking behaviour. The eldest suffers from severe anxiety on and off. I am not just visiting Mum and having a nice chat over coffee. I'm picking up medication, helping her with paperwork and bills. I'm taking her to multiple medical appointments (last week I counted 3 - oh, and my sister took her to 1 because she works full time i.e. 40 hours, not 30). She has dementia and has forgotten how to use appliances in the home properly so keeps ringing to say they're broken . Our conversations can be repetitive and occasionally delusional. I can get several phone calls about the same thing in 1 day because she has forgotten. The ones that are saying I could do better are the ones who are refusing to help
I wish I did have time for a fucking yoga class

Sounds tough....I'm going to hazard a guess that most men won't be queuing up to swap lives with you!

The idea that lots of women working in well paid, full time jobs suddenly decide they want to pop round to their mums for a coffee once a week and take Pilates classes so pack in work and demand money from their husbands is absolute nonsense

I sometimes feel bad and 'non feminist' because I work as a PA which is traditionally a female role, but then I remind myself that me feeling that way is because other people (women and men included) look down on traditionally female roles, there's nothing wrong with what I or you do, it's how society sees women that is the problem.

@Babdoc

It is galling that you can only make that choice because a man is bank rolling you. Without your DH paying the bills, you would have to get a better paid job whether it stressed you or not, or claim benefits. I brought up two DC alone from their babyhood, while working full time as a hospital doctor, because I was widowed and didn’t have the luxury of your options. So yes, you can of course be a feminist, but it is ironic that you personally are financially dependent on a man.

And equally her husband is dependent on her for child care?

@itssunnytoday

I sometimes feel bad and 'non feminist' because I work as a PA which is traditionally a female role, but then I remind myself that me feeling that way is because other people (women and men included) look down on traditionally female roles, there's nothing wrong with what I or you do, it's how society sees women that is the problem.

Exactly, plus totally agree with the point about the working partner being reliant on the childcare. I worked an extra shift the other week while dh looked after little ones. It all goes into the family coffers and hell no did I think he was any less entitled to the extra I’d earned or that I was doing him ‘a favour’ Just as when he goes out to work and I’ve got the kids.

Yes.

Being feminist IMO means choosing the role you want with without being judged for it, even if that role happens to be a stay at home mum caring for children etc.

I am a SAHM and I didn’t think it is anyone else’s business. I am one because it works for our family and also because I think the burden would be too much for me to work (DH is pretty unavailable Mon-Fri which is not his fault) and given me can afford it I think it’s reasonable to say it’s too much on me just to prove some kind of point..

Funnily enough, I suppose I called myself a feminist before having children but it’s something I think about much more now. It was only through pregnancy, miscarriages, childbirth, breastfeeding etc I started to appreciate that women and men can be equal but so, so different and that real feminism isn’t pretending we are the same and can do the same things but valuing women equally for the things we do that no one else can.

@Twicklette Trying to justify women being so dependent on men is such a backward step. It is harking back to post war years and the little woman at home. Women who try and validate not working and being dependent on their partners is not feminism and not the future
This is a terribly narrow view of feminism that seems more rooted in the patriarchy and capitalism than how we best serve women's interests.

I believe most people (men and women) have intrinsic needs that cannot be met through paid employment. The strong desire to spend time with our loved ones and to care for the vulnerable in our families is natural and part of the human condition. We desire a nice home life where things run smoothly and it is a pleasant environment to be in. We have evolved over many many years to have these fundamental drives and yet the tasks associated with meeting these needs have been dismissed in the modern patriarchal capitalist world as menial, unimportant and worthless.

According to you, any woman that prioritises these things is trying to 'validate not working' because paid employment should by default be everyone's priority. How is this progress? Who is all of this for? Surely the default should be that everyone tries to live as satisfying and meaningful life as possible. Of course this will require us to ascertain the resources (i.e. money) needed to facilitate this life, but we have to accept that for many paid employment will not be intrinsic to their happiness and may not necessarily be a core part of their life. They may have independent wealth and not need to work, they may be unable to work or they may have a setup that divides the labour associated with running a family and household on a way where paid employment is undertaken by one partner only. This is all valid and as long as everyone is happy with the arrangement then what is the issue?

There are very few people who on their deathbeds will say "I wish I had spent more time at work" or "I wish I had been a brain surgeon"

Hell yeah, and your friends have got a pretty blinkered view of feminism if they think that just means being more like a man!!! In fact, that's what some feminism has absolutely got wrong.

If we lived in a truly feminist and equal society, we'd be valuing that very old fashioned term 'womens work' and as many men would dream of having children and raising them as much as becoming 'successful' professionally.

Traditionally female held jobs such as carers are low paid. This in itself is a feminist issue and is recognised as a problem by women's groups.

Being a feminist is about equality and choice!

You have made the choice to prioritise family over a career, and support women having the opportunity to develop themselves however they see fit.

You could argue that those giving disparaging comments are anti-feminist saying you have only one route available.

Don’t let them get you down. Being a mother and wife is hard work and worthy of respect. Perhaps they envy your position.