Can you be feminist if you're in a traditional female role?

[gandalf456]

Background - I have 2 teenagers, I am a carer for my elderly mum and I work in an unskilled, low paid job (almost) part time - i.e 5 days a week but 28 hour shift work wrapped around my responsibilities. My husband works 12 hour days. I do most of the work re home and family.

My issue is that I have been on the receiving end of some disparaging comments in the past - ironically, other women seem to be the worst. It's mostly related to the fact that I don't have a career in spite of having had a good education.

My stance is that I don’t want to do the juggle. I feel stretched to the limit as it is. The idea of having a highly responsible job on top feels too much.

However, I do value myself and what I do. I might not have high status or money. I work hard in the job I have and have good relationships with mý children and mum.

There is more to me as a woman and a person than this, right? Do I have to have a career to be respected by other women? I don't see myself as selling out. I'm just doing what works for me

But this is what irritates me...why do we keep focusing on women who are relying on their dh money...why not turn it round and say men are relying on their wives to care for children and the home in order to facilitate them being able to work freely whilst having a family?

Because that is divisive and not equal. This is a discussion about feminism. So many posters on here appear to think that women staying at home and never working is the right thing to do. In reality women have fought so long for a change in attitudes so women can work and be financially independent. The opposite should also be possible, that men can stay home and do day time yoga and visit his parents but it would fill most women on here with intense rage.

Of course you can.

But I don't believe in 'choice feminism' so please stop saying that feminism is about choice as that is extremely reductive and misleading.

The only thing I struggle with is your set up means you are overly reliant on money from a man. Not sure why so many women do readily hand over the money making to someone else and then enjoy a much better lifestyle then they could ever achieve if they went to work. Is it just easier? It feels a bit using men, slightly exploitative.

@Comedycook I work ft and have a family and no dh. Just single parent grafting.

When are we going to stop using the trope that a man needs a ft SAHM behind him to support all his success and do all the childcare. It happens but it also doesn't have to be that way.

OP, I agree with a PP, it’s snobbery and misogyny at work here, not feminism. Feminism is not choices or even equality, it’s liberation for women as a class from men as a class and real lives are lived more messily than theories allow.

Women don’t have to make ‘feminist choices’ in every area of their lives to be ‘good’ feminists. I bet most of those criticising your choices don’t.

Thank you for doing the work you do. It’s important. The attitudes you describe to your work reminded me of this poem by Janine Booth:

UNSKILLED
by Janine Booth

You have no skills – you’re just a carer,
labourer and apron-wearer,
You smear on cream and dish out pills –
you don’t have skills.

You have no skills, you just wipe arses,
the underside of the underclasses,
You clear up drool, make tea and chat –
Where’s the skill in that?!

You’re a manual handler, heavy lifter,
night or late or early shifter.
Miracle worker, first responder,
fifteen-minute magic wander
Jargon buster and explainer,
understander, try-againer
Kit inspector, friend and neighbour,
disinfector, dressing changer,
Food preparer, medicator,
burden bearer, educator,
Precious company, progress praiser,
rarely grumpy, spirit-raiser,
Hoister, shopper, cleaner, duster,
moisture mopper, dose adjuster
Symptom spotter, readings taker,
noter, jotter, arrangements maker,
Passage easer, pain reliever,
comfort giver, help to griever

But you don’t work with lathes or drills –
You don’t have skills

Your wages barely pay your bills –
You have no skills

You’re patient, caring, tough, strong-willed –
but still unskilled

That's why that vacancy's unfilled.

Yes of course! Now I'm a single parent to two teens and I work and support myself completely. But I have all of the same beliefs now that I did when I was a trapped sahm figuring out how to leave and then later, a single mum on benefits trapped out of the workplace due to the price of childcare (and a child with sn who wouldn't be left with anybody but me). I'm still the same. The patriarchy corners women. The patriarchy capitalises on biology.

Feminism is about equality and women having as much choice as men. If you are making choices for yourself and what you want then of course that is what feminism supports

It feels a bit using men, slightly exploitative

Oh those poor men able to work freely unencumbered by having to look after their own children...oh yes, so exploited. Poor them

But this thread is not about a woman caring for young children. It is about an older woman not working so she can care for her elderly mother. I am sure she has lots of hobbies as well and opportunities to socialise.
These threads always get turned into the same old trope about 'menz', such a patronising term, not looking after young children.
It is not about that. It is about a woman trying to validate not working and being financially supported by her husband so that she can stay at home and visit her mum. It sounds a lovely arrangement and I am sure that many women envy her lifestyle. You cannot sell it as feminism. It is a transactional arrangement as old as society, part of the patriarchy. In return for childbearing and rearing children, the poster is free from the tyranny of work.
So many women are fighting to be seen as financially independent and holding down responsible jobs. In return, one hopes that men are given the opportunity to step up and do their share of childcare alongside work.
Feminism is about equality for all and not pigeon holing men and women into the same old roles and throwing around abusive expressions like 'menz'. It is not about calling a man who tries to care for his elderly parents a 'mummy's boy'.

The issue is that caring responsibilities are not seen as valuable or important as high flying careers .... because caring responsibilities are traditionally handled by women and women's work is never valued.

The only time I might question you/your set up would be, for example, if you said things like, "oooh, I haven't had my hair done in 2 years because we use that money for DH to play golf... he works so hard he deserves the break" because then you would be underplaying and undervaluing the work you do too.

I don't care who earns the money and who does the caring etc. I DO care very much that both responsibilities are equally valued as being very very important and that both are necessary.

Women taking on caring roles in general within society is really really not exploiting men. Vast majority of men don't want to take on these tasks. Ok within a specific relationship, there may be an element of entitlement but overall, no.

I’m in a stereotypical female job (primary teacher) and do the stereotypically female jobs at home (washing, cleaning, life admin…). My DH does the stereotypically male jobs (DIY, car stuff, bins…).

However, I am definitely a feminist! My DH is also a feminist. He does the cooking and a lot of caring for our DC because I work longer hours than him. We do the housework jobs that we’re best at or don’t despise doing. Neither of us ever assume the other one will do something because they are a man/woman.

Never let anyone tell you you’re doing feminism wrong because you’re doing a ‘woman’s’ job.

I am perhaps older than many of you and you are quite wrong to dismiss men as not doing their fair share of care for the elderly. Seeing my husband clean his very elderly father's teeth and watching him take his mother to the loo made me love him more.
I know lots of men who care for their elderly parents and do a wonderful job whilst also holding down a paid job.
They will never get any recognition for it on MN. It is the lazy option to constantly decry men as ´mummy's boys' and not examine why society should be making it easier for men to take on caring roles.
Honestly, just look at every day threads on MN about men working in nurseries or as TAs or in a care home to see the hostility towards them.
However, the most bristling hostility is often from women who hate men taking on a caring role with regards to his own parents.
I am sure that the must over used expression on MN is mummy's boy for any man involved in a close relationship with his parents. That and the other favourite of ´cock lodger' for any man not earning enough.
As you get older few of us can avoid becoming a carer however part time for elderly parents. Let's celebrate men who take on caring responsibilities rather than lazy name calling

I don’t think your occupational means you can’t be a feminist, but I think we should examine how we came to be in these traditional roles, was it really free choice? Or was it due to pressure or guilt from society/family/partner etc expectations.

I see so many women doing all or most of the caring responsibilities for elderly relatives in their family and trying to juggle work and caring for their own kids and husbands on top of that, while the male members of the family do less than the bare minimum. Sometimes we do things as a woman because it is expected of us and society/peers/even relatives themselves make us feel guilty if we don’t (with some male weaponised incompetence thrown in), rather than because we really want to.

It’s a complicated situation though because sometimes if we don’t do it who will? And I think that guilt is what keeps some women trapped in traditional roles that deep down they don’t enjoy or want to be doing.

If you genuinely enjoy your caring roles and work set up then I don’t think that means you can’t be a feminist at all, but if you would rather do what your husband does but feel you can’t (as you’re a woman) then that’s something different.

Yes - if you respect a woman is equal and free to make her own choices then you can call yourself a feminist.

But the definition of feminism is about equality and parity for men as well women. That is why feminism is attractive for all.
Statistics tell us that women are far more likely to have no job or a part time job as they age. There is nothing unusual in the OP's position. Thousands, indeed hundreds of thousands of women are in the same position as the OP. But it is not feminism unless men have the same choices. Hand on heart, how many men do you know who work part time so that they can take on caring responsibilities. It is rare. Society doesn't much like men muscling in on traditionally female roles. There was a long thread last week on MN by a group of new mums who didn't want a stay at home Dad in their group.
Many firms make it difficult for men to work part time. I was reading about a senior doctor last week who asked to work part time and was told not unless he was pregnant or was a mother with young children.
Unless we as women and feminists challenge the status quo so that men in caring roles and having the freedom to work part time becomes the norm, society won't change at all.
At the moment some posters seem to be saying that feminism is all about women having the freedom to make any choices she wishes, work, not work etc. However, feminism is quite clear that this freedom of choice should be for everyone. Citing a woman as an example of feminism for staying home after her children are independent so she can be free and visit her mother is not feminism unless her husband has that freedom too (but someone has to be the breadwinner).
What would be unusual would be if a man had the freedom to work part time after his children were independent. Still feminism and breaking moulds but is never going to be celebrated on MN

A previous poster said watching their DH care for their father made them love him more, why can't it be the same for your situation OP?
Maybe your DH truly values the caring role you do, as it should be, and you're both happy to adjust the family unit to allow it.
Care for your Mum would still need to happen, whether you worked more and outsourced it, or whether you took it on yourself. It affects the family unit somehow. It's not right for previous posters to imply you're just dicking around and popping in to visit your mum to avoid work 'bank rolled' by a husband. Is your husband dicking around at work being 'care rolled' by you to avoid doing the truly important task of caring for his MIL? I assume not.
If you were single you would likely have to change your setup, but so would he.
You're a family unit and your Mum is your Mum. You may be the best person in the world to provide her care and it may be something both you and her truly appreciate you had the chance to do.
Work outside of the home is not the be all and end all of pride and self-determination, just as work inside the home isn't all a woman should need for deep fulfillment and joy.
I would support my husband reducing work to care for our parents or our children in a heartbeat (as I have), as would he (and he has). We have both taken on those roles at different times.
What I will say is when my husband was LTFT due to caring responsibilities he got nothing but praise and admiration for it from colleagues, employers, friends, relations, absolutely everyone. It was used as evidence of a positive trait in his assessments at work and his (mostly female) colleagues thought he was the bee's knees.
When I was in that situation I got nothing but difficulties and discrimination for it at work (and we do the same job).
It seems to be it's not the job role but who's doing it sometimes.
What you're doing has value in an objective sense and it sounds like, in a personal sense to you too. Your education may have stood you in good stead for life in ways not measured by job title or salary. You're an educated woman doing important work you have chosen to do. Sounds pretty feminist to me.

Totally relate to your post, but for different reasons. I did have the high flying kick ass career,but had to give it up due to my own health problems & DDs just making the juggling unmanageable. Like you I decided to do my best at the job I had at home whilst DH worked.

It absolutely hasn't changed who I am, what I stand for & I've still managed to raise a kick ass feminist DD, which was a concern of mine when she's only ever known me as the homemaker with an occasional side job.

I did get occasional snide remarks from other mums at times, but I realised that they were frazzled by juggling the most & envied what I had. I definitely never envied their juggling though

So yes, ofc you can be a feminist whilst doing whatever you need to do to get by as a family

But attitudes only change if more people go against the grain and take on a non traditional role. The more men that opt for part time work to take on a caring role the better. In the end, change only happens if enough people demand a change in working practices.
You cannot argue with statistics that far more women in their fifties and sixties work part time compared to men. The majority of older women without caring responsibilities are statistically so much more likely to be part time or not work. Sadly, it's a fact. Society is traditionally hostile to men that don't work or work part time. In fact, anecdotally, you see it all the time on MN with the cries of cock lodger, but statistics are the real hard evidence that older women not working and being supported by husbands is commonplace, far more common than the other way around.

@Namechangedfeb22

Feminism is about equality and women having as much choice as men. If you are making choices for yourself and what you want then of course that is what feminism supports

Absolutely ... feminism isn't at all concerned with equality for men, its women centred.

As is should be as over time it's us that have been oppressed in so many ways, from cradle to grave.

From Merriam Webster Dictionary

The belief that women and men should have equal rights and opportunities

From the Cambridge University Dictionary
The belief that women should be allowed the same rights, power, and opportunities as men and be treated in the same way*

From the Oxford English Dictionary
Feminism is the belief and aim that women should have the same rights, power, and opportunities as men

Feminism is about the equality of the sexes. Treating men and women equally

@Twicklette

So why are you disparaging OPs choices whilst supporting men making the same choice? That's not equal treatment.

You've basically accused OP of forcing her hardworking DH to fund a lazy lifestyle. Whilst becrying men being denied the chance to do the valuable job of caring. It's either a valuable thing to do or not. I think it is. No matter which sex does it. No matter how the family unit is shuffled to allow it.

Women are more likely to take a hit in their careers due to caring responsibilities and other factors which can have long lasting effects - including fewer hours/lower salary etc even as those caring responsibilities 'wane'.

I don't think women who see the value in caring and take on that difficult role are any less feminist than those who see the value and don't take on that difficult role. Women have worked hard to be accepted in many spheres/roles and actually its men that need to do some work now and break out of their own boxes. Maybe more helpful to dissect and interrogate the men in 'traditional' roles than the feminist women.or the system that means it more often than not 'makes sense' for the traditional roles to be upheld even if this is not the personal desire of the individuals within it.

But the OP is a woman, that is why we are dissecting her choices and however much some posters claim that being financially dependent on a man is a feminist position, it is really not feminism n my view.
If a woman was asked to financially support her husband so that he could stay home and care for her step children, imagine the response on here. The OP's husband is supporting his wife so she can care for his MIL

Feminism is definitely about equal opportunities however it's still women centred and doesn't actively seek to make sure men are centred. If men gain also I guess that's a happy accident.

I am a woman and I wasn't more of a feminist when I was working to allow DH to care, and less of a feminist when DH worked more and I had caring responsibilities.
Who does what is a feminist question but it doesn't have one right feminist answer in terms of what, it's more to do with why.
OP is no more 'financially dependent on a man' than her DH is 'domestically dependent' on a woman. She's educated and in work, if her DH disappeared she'd find a way to financially support herself. Likewise if she disappeared, her DH would have to find a way to meet the care needs of his dependents and himself.
Contributing money doesn't inherently have a higher value to a family or society than contributing care. The higher earner isn't always the one doing the 'favour' or the 'supporting'.