Can you be feminist if you're in a traditional female role?

[gandalf456]

Background - I have 2 teenagers, I am a carer for my elderly mum and I work in an unskilled, low paid job (almost) part time - i.e 5 days a week but 28 hour shift work wrapped around my responsibilities. My husband works 12 hour days. I do most of the work re home and family.

My issue is that I have been on the receiving end of some disparaging comments in the past - ironically, other women seem to be the worst. It's mostly related to the fact that I don't have a career in spite of having had a good education.

My stance is that I don’t want to do the juggle. I feel stretched to the limit as it is. The idea of having a highly responsible job on top feels too much.

However, I do value myself and what I do. I might not have high status or money. I work hard in the job I have and have good relationships with mý children and mum.

There is more to me as a woman and a person than this, right? Do I have to have a career to be respected by other women? I don't see myself as selling out. I'm just doing what works for me

Can you be feminist if you're in a traditional female role
The question is too simple. It's not the 'what', it's the 'how'.
Are you barefoot and chained to the kitchen or do you have equal access to money?
Do you favour your DS or treat all DC fairly?
Are you and DH being good role models to the DC?
What are your intentions when caring days are over?
etc

Feminism is about looking at situations like yours and saying: did @gandalf456 really make all the choices she made freely? If society was set up somewhat differently, might she have made different choices? Should the choices that she's made - ie being a carer and saving society hundreds of thousands of pounds - be rewarded differently.

Sometimes that feels uncomfortable, when it's your choices that are being examined. But that doesn't mean you aren't a feminist, that your choices aren't valid, that you aren't making the most feminist choices you can given your situation. Anyone looking down on you can stick it up their arse, in other words, but it's OK for women to go 'hmmm, in a completely free world would you have made the choices you made?'

All that plus the fact that the 'traditional' female spheres are massively undervalued by both patriarchy and capitalism.

You don’t have to act like a man to feel passionately about being respected as a woman.

Disparaging people who take on "lesser women roles" is the opposite of feminism

Why are those roles " lesser " - because the assumption is that women traditionally do them so they must be lesser

Are those roles really lesser ? What caring for people is somehow lesser than making money? That's just twisted . Money should be a means to smooth society , enable it to function well , not a goal in itself

Any society that simultaneously considers sone roles lesser and makes it more likely that women do those roles is the problem not the women making the best of their lives

Yes you can. I don't think caring roles, whether for children, the elderly or the infirm are inherently un-feminist. The un-feminist bit is the value (or lack there of) that society projects onto the people, mostly women, who do these jobs.

A lot of feminist theory is great but in the real world life comes at you fast. Decisions have to be made to benefit the whole family and we have to work with the circumstances we have.

In an ideal world all girls would grasp the tenets of feminism from about age 12 onwards and make great decisions there on in that mean we can live lives full of freedom and choice.

That's just not how it is though. I was in my 30s before I really started to unpick things with a feminist mindset and by that time already much of my life looked un-feminist from an outside perspective. That's not reason enough to just give up and abandon any feminist principles - even small steps can make a difference on an individual level.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if your circumstances at the minute are what works best for you then keep doing it. If it's not then try to change it, even in small ways. It's all each of us can do bar a radical overhaul of the world we live in.

There's some horrible comments on here. The OP is part of a family, this unit relies on each other. Just because OP isn't a high powered career doesn't mean her earnings can't pay for things. It really depends on your financial situation. OP might have no mortgage, live in a cheaper area.

My DH works long hours not because I send him out to get us more money, he works in Tv and that is just the hours. He loves his career so don't make assumptions on the OPs DH. DC benefit from having a parent at home whatever the age and we should value that.
You are an absolute saint to support your DM too. I feel being a feminist is knowing the possibilities but playing your strengths. I'm not forcing myself to be a firefighter because I can be as a women and it's unusual , I'm going to do what I want, what's best for me and my family.

I don't know if it's a wind up/ troll thing on here all MN saying women can't rely on a man. Oh but they insist you get married.

I don't know if it's a wind up/ troll thing on here all MN saying women can't rely on a man. Oh but they insist you get married.

I don't think it's either, I think if you've been on here for any length of time you see time and time again that relying financially on a man, especially without the legal protection of marriage, can get you burned. Marriage is so far away from being a feminist institution that you need the Hubble telescope to see it - never the less, if you plan to have children with a man and you plan to lower your earnings to look after those children, you need to be married to protect yourself financially.

It's not non-feminist to recommend the best path within the current set-up for women.

I do agree snobbery comes into it. This is not Brave New World, where we are wearing Alpha, Beta, Gamma suits. You cannot put people in boxes like that.

Of course, we looked into childcare, extra study and so on. We did the sums in terms of time and money and could not make it add up.

I think what you encountered was snobbery and misogyny not "feminisim" who do they think should do the low paid roles ? Anyway of course you can be feminist but you have a life to live too.

@Justkeeppedaling

I'm not sure. Your husband works long days but you don't want the hassle of a full time job as you do most of the housework and caring.

Have you spoken to your husband about a more equal arrangement where you work similar hours and share the domestic arrangements more equally?

I wouldn't feel right relying on my husband to have to work long hours while I just worked part time, no matter how valuable the actual job was to society.

Some jobs just require long hours or a lot of attention. Some types of work require travel, etc. Are you suggesting only single people do these jobs?

Why should a woman have to take on a full time job in addition to the significant work of caring for her house, kids, and elders? Just because you don't think that's important?

What you are talking about is late stage capitalism, not feminism.

I'm going to do what I want, what's best for me and my family

I think we almost have a blind spot regarding the impacts on families depending on the job.

If someone worked long hours 6 days a week or worked nights stacking shelves in asda , so slept in the day and didn't see their kids much it would be openly discussed how they could affect the kids and the difficulties around supporting rjeor education.

But less would probably be spoken about if someone worked 80 hours a week as a dr or more " approved" jobs . As if the impact goes away because you can afford a nanny akd don't rely on a husband.

Ultimately the real issues aren't part time vs full time. Or lesser/better jobs.

The issues are more why are there such long working hours. Why is one person having to do all that. That's the job of 3 people or 4 part timers.

Why isn't there the ability to have a work/family/life balance in any of the jobs.

I think the anger ir disapproval should be aimed there and not whether someone is only working part time and financially reliant even if contributing to the household

@MaChienEstUnDick

I don't know if it's a wind up/ troll thing on here all MN saying women can't rely on a man. Oh but they insist you get married.

I don't think it's either, I think if you've been on here for any length of time you see time and time again that relying financially on a man, especially without the legal protection of marriage, can get you burned. Marriage is so far away from being a feminist institution that you need the Hubble telescope to see it - never the less, if you plan to have children with a man and you plan to lower your earnings to look after those children, you need to be married to protect yourself financially.

It's not non-feminist to recommend the best path within the current set-up for women.

In some ways feminism has made marriage less useful for women, depending on where you live. It can be set up to protect carers and spouses who take the less remunerative career roles in the event that things go bad. But the assumption that women, even if mothers, should just go out to work themselves, and in some places things like no fault divorce, can hurt women in that position.

There's a real tension there.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I'm going to do what I want, what's best for me and my family

I think we almost have a blind spot regarding the impacts on families depending on the job.

If someone worked long hours 6 days a week or worked nights stacking shelves in asda , so slept in the day and didn't see their kids much it would be openly discussed how they could affect the kids and the difficulties around supporting rjeor education.

But less would probably be spoken about if someone worked 80 hours a week as a dr or more " approved" jobs . As if the impact goes away because you can afford a nanny akd don't rely on a husband.

Ultimately the real issues aren't part time vs full time. Or lesser/better jobs.

The issues are more why are there such long working hours. Why is one person having to do all that. That's the job of 3 people or 4 part timers.

Why isn't there the ability to have a work/family/life balance in any of the jobs.

I think the anger ir disapproval should be aimed there and not whether someone is only working part time and financially reliant even if contributing to the household

I think this depends a bit.

A shelf stacker working 80 hours a week could be two good FT jobs. And often is three to avoid giving them benefits. But say this person is working two such jobs - the long hours are probably to afford the basics on a low wage.

Doctors on the other hand tend to work long hours because there aren't enough of them to do all the necessary work if they are only working 30 hours a week. In fact one of the effects of more women doctors has been lower workloads per doctor because they tend to work fewer hours. This isn't wrong but it does mean you need to train more doctors. And there are only so many people who have the aptitude and interest.

In other cases it's just the job, if you are in the military say chances are you will be away from home regularly for 6 month periods. So your spouse may need flexible work if you have kids, or you need a salary that supports the whole family especially if you are going to be posted where casual jobs are hard to come by.

It just shows how messed up everything is.

Companies /jobs not hiring enough people so everyone's doing more hours than they'd like.

The last to leave culture. How many threads on here have we had where depute being contracted 9-5 they get treated differently fir leaving at five and not still working away at 6.30. We had over hours of our lives fir free .

We have families working 3 or 4 jobs between them unable to make ends meet. In a 2 up 2 down council house shopping at aldi so not trying to maintain a life that's beyond their means.

Sneering at eachthers jobs or part time status or financial reliance ad debating if you can live like that and still be a feminist , I think.detracts from a much bigger mess that women in either situation are all victims of

Getting married is not remotely relying on a man. Not in the slightest.

Yes you can. Part of feminism includes reversing the low status of traditionally female roles. We don’t value carers or SAHMs because the patriarchy only values traditionally male roles. It’s not feminism to cave in to patriarchy and agree the only important roles are the traditionally male ones and all women must do traditionally male roles are they are not feminists. That’s patriarchy backlash against feminism. Feminism is about equality of the sexes and also equality in status for traditionally female roles. It’s sad we still have so far to go.

Marriage is so far away from being a feminist institution

Marriage is a religious institution and so is neither inherently feminist nor anti-feminist. What marriage means in terms of societal rights (laws on the books) for women depends on how feminist the society is or is not.

Respecting caring is a blind spot for feminism (so far!). Women fought really hard to be allowed to do ‘male’ jobs and to be paid fairly for them. Then spectacularly failed to realise that all traditionally female roles are either unpaid or lowly paid and low status. Unfortunately some women have drunk the cool aid on this and internalised it. As a feminist who was a SAHM for a few years it makes me really angry.

There is absolutely no reason that caring for children for example requires any less skills than engineering. Anyone doing so well will be using a vast array of knowledge and skills. Although we accept some pretty poor childcare as a society by suggesting teens do it. Same goes for caring for adults.

You could build a society where caring for other humans was the pinacle of honour and status, requiring the most training and experience. Since people are of clearly more value than making or selling things. The logic follows. We haven’t. The reason is historic sexism that’s been baked in now.

Of course you can, if it is a choice. That, after all, is what feminism boils down to. Equality of choice, parity.

Liberation from patriarchal expectations doesn't mean you can't have a sense or lovre of homemaking.

OP, you of course you can be a feminist! The concerns you have around your value, is a feminist issue. The problem is that caring work is often undervalued by society as we don't ascribe the same monetary value to it, because traditionally caring work is seen as what women just do. Why do we forget time and time again as a society that caring work whether that is for children or the elderly is really hard graft and also really damn important!? If you didn't do it for your family someone else would still need to? Think about it this way, you are contributing to the economy of your home and your family. Your husbands financial contribution is no more important than what you do. I also wonder when you add the work you do caring for your family to your part time work who works the most hours?

Yes.
I married at 30 and we agreed together that I would stay home to care for the children. V.trad. but it was what made sense for us. The difference was that DH salary went into a joint account ,and we each had a personal account with the same amount paid in each month so that we had some 'own' money. When I went back to work, we rearranged it. The point for us was that we were in it together. Yes, I did more childcare, but all of our assets are shared.

@AsTreesWalking so I guess your setup was just practical and financial and it worked for your family unit? That's a good way of putting it

‘ I wouldn't feel right relying on my husband to have to work long hours while I just worked part time’

Few fathers would say ‘I wouldn’t feel right relying on my wife to do most of the parenting and domestic work, on top of her paid work, to facilitate my paid work and career progression, while I just focused on that’.

A central part of feminism for me is valuing the unpaid work usually done by women, often at the detriment of any paid work they may also undertake.

It is anti-feminist to view caring and child rearing as worthless in my view.

I wouldn't feel right relying on my husband to have to work long hours while I just worked part time, no matter how valuable the actual job was to society

And yet I bet no man has ever said "I wouldn't feel right working full time and increasing my earnings whilst my wife looks after the kids"