Feminism: chat
Had never considered this aspect of the sex work is work movement
miri1985 · 20/02/2022 20:38
Was reading this excellent article by Mia Döring about her memoir and I had never realised that we only ever hear from prostituted women that sex work is work, its only ever them who put their names and faces to that idea. If its just a service thats being purchased why do men never come forward and say I'm a punter, I'm just buying a service, I'm going to let everyone know its a choice I make.
She writes really well in this article and I'm going to be very interested to read her book
www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/mia-doring-on-the-irish-sex-trade-seeing-you-is-a-hobby-they-feel-entitled-to-indulge-41360309.html
Why are we not talking about these men? Why are they not talking? In the debates about prostitution, we do not hear from them. They don’t ‘come out’. They don’t create associations or campaign for ‘punters’ rights’. If punting is the legitimate and harmless hobby they claim it to be, why not?
There is a lot of money to be made from operating brothels and running an escort website. Advertising is very expensive – one ‘online directory’ of women in prostitution had a turnover of €6m in 2015. The men pay around a €100 for 30 minutes of sex with a woman, around €200 for an hour. And with more than 100,000 punters, there is obviously no shortage of male demand for women’s bodies.
We know that most women in the sex trade are not there voluntarily, and when we understand sexual consent to be freely given, voluntary and reversible, it is inarguable that when people defend the sex trade in Ireland, they are defending the daily rape of women and girls. The pimps who run the websites become multi-millionaires by serving up a literal rape market.
She also did an excellent interview with Roisin Ingle about her book
www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/irish-men-are-raping-women-for-money-all-across-the-country-1.4797680
"Her argument is that paying for sex does not legitimise the act or make it consensual. “You can’t pay someone to be your friend,” she says. “You don’t have a ‘rent a friend’ scheme, because it’s never going to be mutual. Our expectations are on the floor when it comes to men’s behaviour, especially sexually. We say, ‘Ah, that’s just men, they pay for sex.’ But prostitution sex is not sex, because sex cannot be paid for. And sex is not work.”
She knows there are people, sex workers and their advocates, who argue strongly that it is indeed work, but she has a very different view. “They can call themselves sex workers if they want. I don’t care. I care about the vast majority of women in the sex trade, and that’s all I care about. The vast majority of them are coerced or there by trafficking or there out of desperation, poverty, abuse and addiction.”
She says in the book that as long as we’re all distracted, arguing over whether prostitution is ‘work’, we’re not thinking of the choices of the men running the sex trade for profit. As the debate rages, “these men can sit back and laugh, knowing they have nothing to fear.”
Some sex-worker advocates, she maintains, describe men who want to “connect”, who are in need of touching. The lonely or the elderly, the socially isolated. But, she says, in the four years she spent ‘servicing’ random men, she never met anyone who just needed to talk or needed a hug. These are the men she met: “In their 40s and 50s, middle class, self-assured and entitled.”
“Even if 100 per cent of punters were wheelchair-ridden, chronically lonely, altruistic philanthropists, they have no right to use a woman’s body to have an orgasm. Nothing gives anyone that right. To achieve orgasm is not a right. Sex is neither a bodily need nor a right.”
Joolsin · 20/02/2022 22:35
I thought the bit where she was in the man's house and she misunderstood when he asked 'what do you do?' was heartbreaking. There is no justification for prostitution, so smoothing it over by calling it sex work, by invoking the 'happy hooker' myth, is just bullshit.
Not disrespectin or disagreeing by the way....EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 20/02/2022 23:02
Superb piece.
I grew up in an area with a lot of brothels and sex workers. I've never understood the empowerment argument. I do know that it was an area of everyday violence and ambient danger where men felt entitled to purchase sexual services even from children for a bar of Galaxy.
I don't know, but when men banged on our windows and doors because they'd mistaken our house for the one they wanted, I never felt they were doing it as a prequel to seeking a hug, some chat, and simple human contact.
cheeseismydownfall · 20/02/2022 23:24
That's a great piece, thank you for sharing it.
It makes me think of our village WhatsApp group, which is always awash with people asking for recommendations for reliable decorators, plumbers, builders etc.
Funnily enough if never seen anyone asking for a recommendation for a really prostitute. I wonder why?
jennywhitehorses · 21/02/2022 14:29
The vast majority of them are coerced or there by trafficking or there out of desperation, poverty, abuse and addiction.
This is false. Academics such as Professor Nick Mai and Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon know all about prostitution and know that it is not true.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/oct/16/law-jacquismith
miri1985 · 21/02/2022 17:02
[quote jennywhitehorses]The vast majority of them are coerced or there by trafficking or there out of desperation, poverty, abuse and addiction.
This is false. Academics such as Professor Nick Mai and Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon know all about prostitution and know that it is not true.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/oct/16/law-jacquismith[/quote]
That newspaper article only talks about trafficking, do you have data that says the other women aren't there because of desperation, poverty abuse and addiction?
yellowtwo · 21/02/2022 17:05
X-post miri1985
I'm looking forward to reading Mia Dörings book too.
This really stood out to me because it's something I've heard a lot from prostitution advocates.
Some sex-worker advocates, she maintains, describe men who want to “connect”, who are in need of touching. The lonely or the elderly, the socially isolated. But, she says, in the four years she spent ‘servicing’ random men, she never met anyone who just needed to talk or needed a hug. These are the men she met: “In their 40s and 50s, middle class, self-assured and entitled.”
Joolsin · 21/02/2022 17:10
Also, @jennywhitehorses, Mia is writing about her experience of the sex trade in Ireland. You're quoting an article from the UK. It's well-known here in Ireland that trafficked women are brought here and fruquently moved on by their pimps from rural town to rural town
CanIPleaseHaveOne · 21/02/2022 17:36
[quote jennywhitehorses]The vast majority of them are coerced or there by trafficking or there out of desperation, poverty, abuse and addiction.
This is false. Academics such as Professor Nick Mai and Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon know all about prostitution and know that it is not true.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/oct/16/law-jacquismith[/quote]
So Academics and Professors know more about prostitution than a prostitute?
Sorry - "know all about prostitution". So I presume the prostitute only knows one aspect, and they know the rest?
Interesting!
Explain how?
Waitwhat23 · 21/02/2022 18:23
I thought so. I think MNHQ have started to realise that the vast majority of posters are using the Sex and Gender board as the FWR board, where a wide variety of issues are discussed both as stand-alone threads and within threads discussing other issues, (as was predicted at the time of the great schism) and the Feminism:Chat board is largely being ignored. They keep moving threads to this board but if they were actually doing this due to the topic being discussed, the vast majority of threads on Feminism:Chat should be moved to the Sex and Gender board.
I suspect they don't do this because it would leave the Feminism:Chat board with around 20 threads.
Lranrwt · 21/02/2022 20:58
I recently read some of the SAAFE forum posts (forum for sex workers). Assuming the posts are genuine, I was astonished at the number of posts describing the encounters in a positive way ( making reference to a man being a 'lovely' guy, an 'attractive' guy, good at oral sex, etc.). There was even a post lamenting the fact that the sex worker couldn't find a boyfriend as nice as some of her 'punters'.
I would have thought being a sex worker was a miserable, boring, soul-destroying job.
CousinKrispy · 21/02/2022 22:03
This BBC radio piece has some interesting food for thought "Why men pay for sex" www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04f9lmj
The men selected have a range of motivations. But I imagine men who would consent to be interviewed for a show like this may not be representative.
I swear I have heard men, especially of the libertarian dudebro type, arguing for "sex work is work" from the customer point of view, but I could be remembering incorrectly.
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