Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Had never considered this aspect of the sex work is work movement

111 replies

miri1985 · 20/02/2022 20:38

Was reading this excellent article by Mia Döring about her memoir and I had never realised that we only ever hear from prostituted women that sex work is work, its only ever them who put their names and faces to that idea. If its just a service thats being purchased why do men never come forward and say I'm a punter, I'm just buying a service, I'm going to let everyone know its a choice I make.
She writes really well in this article and I'm going to be very interested to read her book

www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/mia-doring-on-the-irish-sex-trade-seeing-you-is-a-hobby-they-feel-entitled-to-indulge-41360309.html

Why are we not talking about these men? Why are they not talking? In the debates about prostitution, we do not hear from them. They don’t ‘come out’. They don’t create associations or campaign for ‘punters’ rights’. If punting is the legitimate and harmless hobby they claim it to be, why not?
There is a lot of money to be made from operating brothels and running an escort website. Advertising is very expensive – one ‘online directory’ of women in prostitution had a turnover of €6m in 2015. The men pay around a €100 for 30 minutes of sex with a woman, around €200 for an hour. And with more than 100,000 punters, there is obviously no shortage of male demand for women’s bodies.

We know that most women in the sex trade are not there voluntarily, and when we understand sexual consent to be freely given, voluntary and reversible, it is inarguable that when people defend the sex trade in Ireland, they are defending the daily rape of women and girls. The pimps who run the websites become multi-millionaires by serving up a literal rape market.

She also did an excellent interview with Roisin Ingle about her book

www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/irish-men-are-raping-women-for-money-all-across-the-country-1.4797680

"Her argument is that paying for sex does not legitimise the act or make it consensual. “You can’t pay someone to be your friend,” she says. “You don’t have a ‘rent a friend’ scheme, because it’s never going to be mutual. Our expectations are on the floor when it comes to men’s behaviour, especially sexually. We say, ‘Ah, that’s just men, they pay for sex.’ But prostitution sex is not sex, because sex cannot be paid for. And sex is not work.”

She knows there are people, sex workers and their advocates, who argue strongly that it is indeed work, but she has a very different view. “They can call themselves sex workers if they want. I don’t care. I care about the vast majority of women in the sex trade, and that’s all I care about. The vast majority of them are coerced or there by trafficking or there out of desperation, poverty, abuse and addiction.”

She says in the book that as long as we’re all distracted, arguing over whether prostitution is ‘work’, we’re not thinking of the choices of the men running the sex trade for profit. As the debate rages, “these men can sit back and laugh, knowing they have nothing to fear.”

Some sex-worker advocates, she maintains, describe men who want to “connect”, who are in need of touching. The lonely or the elderly, the socially isolated. But, she says, in the four years she spent ‘servicing’ random men, she never met anyone who just needed to talk or needed a hug. These are the men she met: “In their 40s and 50s, middle class, self-assured and entitled.”

“Even if 100 per cent of punters were wheelchair-ridden, chronically lonely, altruistic philanthropists, they have no right to use a woman’s body to have an orgasm. Nothing gives anyone that right. To achieve orgasm is not a right. Sex is neither a bodily need nor a right.”

OP posts:
MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 01:48

@LauriePartridge4Eva

Both Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South.

Not sure what their faith has to do with wanting the Nordic model?? (FYI, Catholics outnumber Protestants in the North)

From my experience, practicing Christians generally support criminalisation or partial-criminalisation of sex work even if they know almost nothing about it. IMO I think it's more to do with religious reasons and beliefs. The fact Ireland is a very Christian country may have contributed to the Nordic Model sailing easily through their parliament.

Prostitution is a very complex topic and IMO I don't think we should be making laws based on religious views.

nightwakingmoon · 25/02/2022 09:07

@MargaritaPie

"If as you argue most “sex workers” aren’t exploited or trafficked but it’s just like a job, why shouldn’t we (as a society) then judge them pretty harshly for providing an immoral service? A “service” that is harmful socially and destructive to other women, children and families"

Loaded question.

Ah, I see you just don’t want to answer. It’s the logical end point of the “it’s a job like any other” campaign - if it’s just a job then why shouldn’t we hold those who choose it to normal ethical standards? You can’t play both the “free choice” and the victim card at the same time.

Your disingenuous pro-sex-trade shilling for men who buy women’s bodies isn’t loaded though, I expect….?

Londondreams1 · 25/02/2022 10:24

@Lranrwt
The punters can sometimes identify the women on the SAAFE forum, I would assume, and therefore they need to promote themselves as loving the work, in the interest of marketing.

That being said, I can think of plenty more jobs more soul destroying, and said jobs don’t even have decent pay to cushion the work. I’m thinking one area of work in particular but don’t want to offend anybody who does that work as some women do take pride when they work in that field (I’ve worked in it too— wasn’t for me, It was normal to see pregnant women smoking to get them through the day from the stress and — hell, quite frankly— of what the work entailed)

jennywhitehorses · 25/02/2022 15:31

@3timeslucky

What are you on about? Rachel Moran was not a pimp and is in favour of the Nordic Model. She is absolutely opposed to the notion that prostitution is just a form of work.

You don't seem to want to read her book so let me quote from it, followed by a quote from one of the women interviewed by researcher Ann-Marie O'Connor.

"I rented an apartment in Terenure for a short time and opened an escort agency of my own. I was seventeen at the time and I'm quite sure I was the youngest person advertising an escort agency in Ireland. It was a very simple thing to do and only required an apartment, a mobile phone and an advertisement in the back of In Dublin magazine, but when I had to deal with the reality of the ridiculous overheads, I soon got rid of the apartment and advertised for call-outs only. I worked mainly in the brothels and escort agencies of others from then on and did my own call-outs to homes and hotels. If I'd get a request for a call-in on my agency line I'd use a bedroom in the brothel of one of the women I was associating with at that time. I'd pay them a fee for the use of the room, which was common practice. I'd made money that way when I had my own apartment." Paid For by Rachel Moran Chapter 10 page 93.

"Three (17%) of the women felt very strongly that the new law is leading to the emergence of pimps (male protectors) and therefore, an increase in violence and intimidation on the streets. One said "anyone with enough money to rent an apartment and a mobile phone can go into business as a pimp. These men are offering protection and a "safe house" to women who are working. "They leech (latch) onto the women providing protection and paying bail, that's when the violence comes in". The health needs of women working in prostitution in the Republic of Ireland Ann Marie O'Connor 1994

Notice that in both quotations the words 'apartment' and 'mobile phone' appear. Moran was leeching off vulnerable women. Not only did she run her own 'escort agency' but she was taking money from women for the use of her apartment. That's pimping, even in Nordic model Ireland today where women are supposedly decriminalised.

So she was a pimp. I know that she campaigns for the Nordic model.

Some people have said that if Rachel Moran had been a prostitute on the streets of Dublin they would have remembered her. They all knew each other. However, perhaps they would have more success in remembering her if they thought about her standing in a doorway, with a chunky mobile phone in one hand, a bunch of keys in the other, a copy of In Dublin magazine in one back pocket and a bag of cocaine in the other. I wouldn't call her a survivor, I would say that people had to survive her.

How can an academic study "the full range of prostitution" and know more about what it is to be prostituted than someone who has actually had that experience? The function of academic research (and its limitations) are entirely different to personal experience (not just in being prostituted).

It is not right to claim that the personal experience of one small group of sex workers is representative of sex workers as a whole. People like Ann-Marie O'Connor have interviewed drug addicted street based sex workers and know all about it, but they don't pretend that this is the reality of prostitution. Far from it.

yellowtwo · 25/02/2022 15:57

I'd be very careful with your accusations
jennywhitehorses Rachel had to take a woman to court for spreading such lies about her, who said she didn't work on the streets.

If you read what you posted again:
If I'd get a request for a call-in on my agency line I'd use a bedroom in the brothel of one of the women I was associating with at that time.
If she got a call on her agency line she would rent a room in a brothel.
Where does it say she was "pimping" put other Women?

yellowtwo · 25/02/2022 16:00

Again Jennywhitehorses Anne Marie O Connor's study is specifically about prostituted Women who are drug users, the studies are not representative of all prostituted Women and nor does she claim them to be.

NarwhalsAteMyToast · 25/02/2022 16:12

My opposition to the whole ‘sex work is work’ mantra mainly comes from how this statement has accentuated, especially in the minds of many young men, the notion that a woman’s main (or only) value is her sexual appeal to men.

I work in a tech company with plenty of men in their 20s and 30s, men who make incredible amounts of money straight out of uni, and it’s horrifying how many believe that sex work is the future for women. These men will happily talk about how great it is for 18 year olds to get into OnlyFans or escorting as it’s a fantastic way to ‘get rich’, while in the same breath slagging off female colleagues (especially when they nab promotions) as being ‘diversity hires’ who should go do porn instead of ‘stealing their positions’.

I had my nudes leaked a few years back when I was a first year student at uni, and got messages from classmates telling me that I should just sell these nudes as they would buy them. It really made me question things if that was their first thought to what was an extremely distressing situation for me.

Sex work can be just work, but only in a parallel universe where women are not objectified, harassed, assaulted, and valued primarily for their attractiveness to men.

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 16:19

*"Ah, I see you just don’t want to answer. It’s the logical end point of the “it’s a job like any other” campaign - if it’s just a job then why shouldn’t we hold those who choose it to normal ethical standards? You can’t play both the “free choice” and the victim card at the same time.

Your disingenuous pro-sex-trade shilling for men who buy women’s bodies isn’t loaded though, I expect…."*

I'm not sure I'm following re your first paragraph.

Re your 2nd paragraph there are number of valid points for supporting decriminalisation that have nothing to do with "siding with men who want to buy sex". For example refer to my post Wed 23-Feb-22 22:39:05 where I mentioned a number of health and anti-STD orgs who support decriminalisation.

I posted this link, have you had a look at it? It gives reasons from a health perspective why decriminalisation would be better than the Nordic Model:

stopaids.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/STOPAIDS-factsheet-sex-work.pdf

yellowtwo · 25/02/2022 16:36

You mentioned Amnesty MargaritaPie
They had a pimp help them form their policy on prostitution.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/22/pimp-amnesty-prostitution-policy-sex-trade-decriminalise-brothel-keepers

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 17:01

I posted this on another thread (which I didn't realise is now inactive), I'll post it here too. It's a response from Amnesty when I emailed them recently to clarify their position on sexwork and Douglas Fox.

"Thank you for your email.

Amnesty International adopted a policy on the issue of sex work back in 2015, calling for the decriminalization model. Amnesty International spent two years developing our proposed policy to protect the human rights of sex workers. This policy is based on solid research and consultation with a range of organizations and people. Our policy is not about the rights of buyers of sex - it is entirely focussed on protecting sex workers who face a range of human rights violations that are linked to criminalization. Douglas Fox was not in any way involved in drafting our policy on sex work, he has not been a member of Amnesty for some time and had absolutely no input into our policy – you can read a statement we issued about him in 2014 on our website here*. The policy was drafted by Amnesty International researchers and law and policy experts from across the organization. A range of organisations, from sex workers to those representing survivors of prostitution, to anti trafficking agencies, HIV/AIDS activists and many others, were invited to feed into this process during Amnesty International’s global 2 year fact-finding and consultation process. Our policy is based on research on the lived experience of sex workers, backed up by a wide range of academic and human rights based research, including Amnesty International's own, and hundreds of external submissions to our consultation.

We know that this issue is not without controversy and we understand that some people hold passionate beliefs about it but we are a global human rights organization and we have a responsibility to look at what causes and what prevents human rights violations. That often means making difficult decisions that some people may not agree with. The agreement to adopt this policy means that Amnesty International is saying that we believe that the rights of a group of people who are extremely vulnerable to human rights abuse should be protected.

Amnesty International is by no means alone on this issue. Other groups which support or are calling for the decriminalization of sex work include the World Health Organization, UN Women, UNAIDS, ILO, the Global Commission on HIV and the Law, the UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Health, Human Rights Watch, The Open Society Foundations, the Global Alliance Against Trafficking in Women and Anti-Slavery International.

Best wishes,
Rachel
Supporter Communications Team
Amnesty International UK"

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 17:06

As mentioned above, Amnesty Int. are certainly not the only ones calling for decrim- A long list of human rights, health, anti-STD, anti-trafficking and sex worker (adults who sell sexual services) orgs support full decriminalisation.

yellowtwo · 25/02/2022 17:18

Ms Teggart is from Amnesty International and Mr. Wells is a committee member of the Committee for Justice.

*Mr Wells: I think that you know who Douglas Fox is, do you not?

Ms Teggart: I think that, after your e-mail inquiry, based on what my colleague googled, he came up as an International Union of Sex Workers (IUSW) activist.

Mr Wells: Douglas Fox runs the largest prostitution ring in the north-east of England. He has been on the front page of 'The Northern Echo' and is quite proud of that fact. Douglas Fox was running the largest prostitution ring in the north-east of England, he was a member of Amnesty International, in one of your north-east branches, and he proposed the motion at your AGM in Nottingham in 2008. Is that correct?

Ms Teggart: He did not propose the motion. The motion was proposed by the Newcastle upon Tyne group.

Mr Wells: But he was instrumental in that motion, which went before your group.

Ms Teggart: He was a member of the group that brought forward that motion.

Mr Wells: You allowed a person who ran the largest prostitution ring in the north-east of England to have major input in your policy development.*

www.niassembly.gov.uk/assembly-business/official-report/committee-minutes-of-evidence/session-2013-2014/january-2014/human-trafficking-and-exploitation-further-provisions-and-support-for-victims-bill-amnesty-international-uk/

yellowtwo · 25/02/2022 17:21

MargaritaPie The NSWP are listed on that StopAids link you posted.

Alejandra Gil, the NSWP’s former vice-president, was jailed for 15 years for sex trafficking.

Murky waters don't you think?

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 17:24

Are you suggesting Amnesty UK are lying about the fact DF had no input to their policy?

Also to point out Amnesty International is made up of 80 offices worldwide (all of whom contributed to the overall decision to support decrim). Amesty UK is just one of these offices.

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 17:27

"MargaritaPie The NSWP are listed on that StopAids link you posted"

They list many health and human rights orgs as sources.

Don't you want to discuss any of the health and safety benefits of decriminalisation (such as the fact criminalisation or partial criminalisation discourages condom use), or do you just want to focus entirely on some guy in the NE who has a civil partner who owns an escort agency who someone says had alleged input on Amnesty UK's policy (which Amnesty and Douglas Fox himself have denied).

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 17:29

For what it's worth, Douglas Fox is (or was at one point) a prostitute himself. So he does have self experience of what it's like to sell sexual services.

yellowtwo · 25/02/2022 19:24

I am not suggesting it, I posted a transcript from the Justice Commitee. What do you think this means MargaritaPie?

You allowed a person who ran the largest prostitution ring in the north-east of England to have major input in your policy development.

nightwakingmoon · 25/02/2022 19:40

You must understand my point perfectly well, MargaritaPie. And many posters have talked you through all of this before.

The selling and buying of sex is degrading and corrosive in itself, MargaritaPie. The commercialising and objectifying of human bodies is in itself wrong and unethical. Just like buying and selling other socially harmful things - like drugs or tobacco.

Most women who do it are desperate or exploited and no one could judge them for it - they should be helped to leave.

Women who decide to do it as a fun job like any other? I doubt there are many of them, but if there were, why shouldn’t we judge them as harshly as anyone who made a choice to sell something damaging and unethical?

Families and relationships are destroyed by prostitution. (Do you think all the men who use prostitutes are single?) It contributes to porn and rape culture, and the acceptance of sexual violence, when women’s bodies are thought of as pieces of sex for rent. Just as buying and selling human bodies in any other way is exploitative and deeply unethical.

It is damaging to all of us when human women are thought of as objects for purchase for sex. I feel deep compassion for the women in the sex industry who are trafficked or coerced or ended up in that situation with few options, addicted or in poverty.

I do not feel compassion for the (mostly imaginary?) happy hooker who supposedly becomes a prostitute for the money and work like any other job. That’s colluding in something intrinsically unethical for women and girls and for everyone in society. I’d judge that just as I’d judge anyone - and I’ve known a few well-to-do men who do - who trades knowingly in unethical industries just for the money.

I suspect, however, that the happy “Belle du Jour” hooker is almost entirely a myth. Who you are really shilling for is pimps and male exploiters; you’re the supporter of an evil and immoral trade in women and girls as pieces of sexual meat for men’s use. I don’t care if you rationalise it as all about some silly individualist capitalist notion that selling your body cheaply for tiny bits of money is somehow empowering. (Ever hear of a woman getting really rich and powerful out of prostitution?)

You’re on the side of exploiters, human slavers, pornographers, criminals and violent and abusive men. That’s who you’re with. You are part of the problem. Why should we listen to any of your spurious twisted “justifications” of how fantastic prostitution is? We all know quite well what it is, and so do you.

Winederlust · 25/02/2022 20:21

"I rented an apartment in Terenure for a short time and opened an escort agency of my own. I was seventeen at the time and I'm quite sure I was the youngest person advertising an escort agency in Ireland. It was a very simple thing to do and only required an apartment, a mobile phone and an advertisement in the back of In Dublin magazine, but when I had to deal with the reality of the ridiculous overheads, I soon got rid of the apartment and advertised for call-outs only. I worked mainly in the brothels and escort agencies of others from then on and did my own call-outs to homes and hotels. If I'd get a request for a call-in on my agency line I'd use a bedroom in the brothel of one of the women I was associating with at that time. I'd pay them a fee for the use of the room, which was common practice. I'd made money that way when I had my own apartment."
Again Jenny, this doesn't say what you think it does. She appears to be using the phrase 'escort agency' as renting an apartment so punters can visit her rather than go to them in this context.
She may refer to other women renting a room from her as a one off just as she did from others...if that makes her a pimp then she has also been pimped. Something you seem to be trying to deny. You can't have it both ways.

Winederlust · 25/02/2022 20:23

I do not feel compassion for the (mostly imaginary?) happy hooker who supposedly becomes a prostitute for the money and work like any other job. That’s colluding in something intrinsically unethical for women and girls and for everyone in society.
This is the crux of it for me, night.

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 22:10

"I am not suggesting it, I posted a transcript from the Justice Commitee. What do you think this means MargaritaPie"

So if I understand correctly, Douglas Fox who is a male prostitute and has a civil partner who runs a NE escort agency, was part of a group which proposed a motion (along with hundreds of other groups and orgs and individuals) to Amnesty UK to support decrim or whatever they thought was best.

According to Amnesty, Amnesty UK didn't even approve the motion put forward by the group DF was a member of: www.amnesty.org.uk/douglas-fox

Yet the claim I am hearing is that DF contributed Amnesty International's decision to support decriminalisation (which as mentioned above is made up of 80 offices worldwide who all inputted, the UK's office is just one of these).

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 22:20

"Women who decide to do it as a fun job like any other? I doubt there are many of them, but if there were, why shouldn’t we judge them as harshly as anyone who made a choice to sell something damaging and unethical"

This is the part I'm not sure I'm following. You mean you want society to judge willing sex workers harshly? That's one of the reasons many orgs and individuals support decrim, it's the model where sex workers are judged the least and suffer the least stigma.

"You’re on the side of exploiters, human slavers, pornographers, criminals and violent and abusive men. That’s who you’re with. You are part of the problem. Why should we listen to any of your spurious twisted “justifications” of how fantastic prostitution is?"

That's slightly derogatory IMO, I've never even said sex work is "fantastic", it's just my view that decriminalisation would be the law model in the best interest of those in prostitution (regardless if they are willing or trafficked). I've mentioned a number of well established health etc orgs who have valid reasons why this would be better than any of the criminalisation (this includes the Nordic Model) options.

Winederlust · 25/02/2022 23:43

Are some people trying to say that a person who has spent time as a sex worker would then happily become a pimp because they think it's a great line of work? Or could it be that it's the only real way of making money they know, and getting others to do the work for you is just an easier way of making more of it (good old fashion capitalism)? Once you're in that cycle it's extremely difficult to get out of it so what other option do people have?

yellowtwo · 26/02/2022 08:45

MargaritaPie Amnesty talk out of both sides of their mouth. This is the organisation that has stated that "there is no such thing as a biologically female body", so forgive me for doubting anything they say about Douglas Fox, when that transcript shows he had input in the policy development.

jennywhitehorses · 26/02/2022 12:11

@yellowtwo

Where does it say she was "pimping" put other Women?

Do you know what pimping is? Running your own escort agency is pimping. Taking money off women to let them use a room of yours is pimping.

When you take money off women who are desperate because there has been a change in the law which means they can no longer work on the streets and they can't afford an apartment and a mobile phone that is morally reprehensible.

She used them then and she is using them now. When sex workers agreed to be interviewed by Ann-Marie O'Connor and her colleagues they did it in good faith. They were hoping that the authorities would take notice of their plight and do something to alleviate their suffering.

They didn't realise that decades later one of the people who exploited them would falsify this research to bring in another restrictive law that would harm them. It is true that 38% of the 77 drug addicted Dublin street sex workers interviewed by O'Connor had attempted suicide. It is not true what Moran wrote in her book, that 38% of Irish prostitutes have attempted suicide.

If you know how many drug addicts have attempted suicide then you would want the state to spend millions on rehab. That's what the Nordic model is supposed to do but doesn't. Read what Dr Shannon wrote in the official report.

If you mistakenly think that 38% of sex workers have attempted suicide then you would want sex work to be banned. At least you would if you mistakenly thought that prohibition means less sex work. Dr Shannon has not said that there is less prostitution in Ireland now compared to before the Nordic model being introduced. If you look at the corresponding report for Northern Ireland it says that the amount of prostitution has increased. If you take an impartial look at the statistics from Sweden you would conclude that it increased there too.

I have told you what Moran has written in her book. The pimping and the drugs. I have also said that some people have said they don't remember her on the streets of Dublin in the 1990s. I have not said I don't believe she was on the streets. When I started reading the book I thought she might have made it up - there have been people like Valerie Lempereur who have made it up. Then I realised that if you were going to make up something you wouldn't make up that. Her experience doesn't really support the cause of prohibition.

What she writes in Paid For is that she didn't have penetrative sex for the first two years in sex work. She never had anal sex ever. She only did penetrative sex 'sporadically' after the 1993 law which made life more difficult for sex workers. Oral sex was with condoms and one of the women she knew didn't ever do oral because she didn't want to. So what she wrote is completely different from some people's ideas about what prostitution is. But then again after 1993 things did change and it all became more violent.