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Had never considered this aspect of the sex work is work movement

111 replies

miri1985 · 20/02/2022 20:38

Was reading this excellent article by Mia Döring about her memoir and I had never realised that we only ever hear from prostituted women that sex work is work, its only ever them who put their names and faces to that idea. If its just a service thats being purchased why do men never come forward and say I'm a punter, I'm just buying a service, I'm going to let everyone know its a choice I make.
She writes really well in this article and I'm going to be very interested to read her book

www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/mia-doring-on-the-irish-sex-trade-seeing-you-is-a-hobby-they-feel-entitled-to-indulge-41360309.html

Why are we not talking about these men? Why are they not talking? In the debates about prostitution, we do not hear from them. They don’t ‘come out’. They don’t create associations or campaign for ‘punters’ rights’. If punting is the legitimate and harmless hobby they claim it to be, why not?
There is a lot of money to be made from operating brothels and running an escort website. Advertising is very expensive – one ‘online directory’ of women in prostitution had a turnover of €6m in 2015. The men pay around a €100 for 30 minutes of sex with a woman, around €200 for an hour. And with more than 100,000 punters, there is obviously no shortage of male demand for women’s bodies.

We know that most women in the sex trade are not there voluntarily, and when we understand sexual consent to be freely given, voluntary and reversible, it is inarguable that when people defend the sex trade in Ireland, they are defending the daily rape of women and girls. The pimps who run the websites become multi-millionaires by serving up a literal rape market.

She also did an excellent interview with Roisin Ingle about her book

www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/irish-men-are-raping-women-for-money-all-across-the-country-1.4797680

"Her argument is that paying for sex does not legitimise the act or make it consensual. “You can’t pay someone to be your friend,” she says. “You don’t have a ‘rent a friend’ scheme, because it’s never going to be mutual. Our expectations are on the floor when it comes to men’s behaviour, especially sexually. We say, ‘Ah, that’s just men, they pay for sex.’ But prostitution sex is not sex, because sex cannot be paid for. And sex is not work.”

She knows there are people, sex workers and their advocates, who argue strongly that it is indeed work, but she has a very different view. “They can call themselves sex workers if they want. I don’t care. I care about the vast majority of women in the sex trade, and that’s all I care about. The vast majority of them are coerced or there by trafficking or there out of desperation, poverty, abuse and addiction.”

She says in the book that as long as we’re all distracted, arguing over whether prostitution is ‘work’, we’re not thinking of the choices of the men running the sex trade for profit. As the debate rages, “these men can sit back and laugh, knowing they have nothing to fear.”

Some sex-worker advocates, she maintains, describe men who want to “connect”, who are in need of touching. The lonely or the elderly, the socially isolated. But, she says, in the four years she spent ‘servicing’ random men, she never met anyone who just needed to talk or needed a hug. These are the men she met: “In their 40s and 50s, middle class, self-assured and entitled.”

“Even if 100 per cent of punters were wheelchair-ridden, chronically lonely, altruistic philanthropists, they have no right to use a woman’s body to have an orgasm. Nothing gives anyone that right. To achieve orgasm is not a right. Sex is neither a bodily need nor a right.”

OP posts:
jennywhitehorses · 22/02/2022 14:44

@CanIPleaseHaveOne

So Academics and Professors know more about prostitution than a prostitute?

Sorry - "know all about prostitution". So I presume the prostitute only knows one aspect, and they know the rest?

Interesting!

Explain how?

Academics like Belinda Brooks-Gordon study the full range of prostitution, not just one aspect of it. Someone like Mia Doring doesn't know what most prostitution is like, and they don't know that prostitution has become more violent in Ireland since 1993. In 1993 a law was passed in Ireland which severely restricted the activities of prostitutes. It drove women into the hands of pimps. Rachel Moran said this law caused a lot of suffering for women and she should know because she was one of those pimps. It is the people who wanted this law and other restrictive laws who are responsible for the increase in violence. Prostitution in Ireland pre 1993 wasn't particularly violent. The Nordic model just makes it worse.

They say that if prostitution is banned it won't go underground. According to Mia Doring's article it is flourishing in Nordic model Ireland.

jennywhitehorses · 22/02/2022 15:01

@Joolsin

Also, @jennywhitehorses, Mia is writing about her experience of the sex trade in Ireland. You're quoting an article from the UK. It's well-known here in Ireland that trafficked women are brought here and fruquently moved on by their pimps from rural town to rural town

After 1993 I'm sure that is correct. Have you read Slave by Anna? She was a Romanian woman who was kidnapped from a street in London. The first thing they did was to take her to Ireland. That's very odd, don't you think? There are lots of brothels in London.

She said she was moved around between Dublin, Galway and Belfast. She said that some of the women she knew were trafficked to Sweden ("Anna's pimps were tracked down in Sweden"). Sweden, of all places. Why Sweden? Why not Manchester or London?

The only explanation I can think of is that Sweden and Ireland are places where the police crack down hard on prostitution. The modus operandi of violent pimps doesn't work so well in England. English sex workers will report it to the police.

Sweden has had the Nordic model since 1999. Now both the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland have it too. They didn't at the time Ana was held captive, but attitudes were against sex work which is the reason they were so keen to get the Nordic model. Both Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South.

yellowtwo · 22/02/2022 15:14

Rachel Moran said this law caused a lot of suffering for women and she should know because she was one of those pimps.
Rachel Moran was NOT a pimp. She was coerced into prostitution by her boyfriend at the time.
She is an advocate for the Nordic Model.

theworld.org/stories/2015-10-01/after-seven-years-dublin-sex-trade-rachel-moran-says-prostitution-always-abuse

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 22/02/2022 15:40

Just adding in the living hell that is Germany (I paraphrase).

This is a content warning because the material in this article is deeply distressing.

When German anti-prostitution advocates talk about the situation of prostitution in Germany, we hear the same responses, over and over: “You’ve got to be kidding!” or “How is this possible?” When we do presentations in other countries, people in the audience will often start to cry or ask for a break after 15 minutes to get some fresh air. The same presentations in Germany cause outrage as well, but we’ve noticed that people have become so accustomed to the situation, their emotional response is subdued. In fact, German men will often openly and proudly out themselves as sex buyers at abolitionist events. There is no shame in being a commercial sex buyer in Germany. This is an obvious and alarming sign that decades of legalized prostitution have shaped society.

fightthenewdrug.org/germanys-legalized-prostitution-industry-looks-like-a-real-life-horror-movie/

AgathaMystery · 22/02/2022 15:48

I will absolutely be reading this book.

I know it’s probably been done to death but one problem with ‘sex work is work’ is if we legitimise the sex trade & find ourself at the job centre and we can’t find a job, what would stop a job counsellor putting us forward for brothel interviews?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 22/02/2022 15:54

@AgathaMystery

I will absolutely be reading this book.

I know it’s probably been done to death but one problem with ‘sex work is work’ is if we legitimise the sex trade & find ourself at the job centre and we can’t find a job, what would stop a job counsellor putting us forward for brothel interviews?

Remember when something liked this briefly happened until it was reversed? Strippers, topless staff, and lap dancers.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1299677/Job-centres-banned-advertising-strippers-lapdancers-topless-barmaids.html

yellowtwo · 22/02/2022 16:00

jennywhitehorses

Could you tell me where you are getting this information from?
Prostitution in Ireland pre 1993 wasn't particularly violent.

CanIPleaseHaveOne · 22/02/2022 19:49

[quote jennywhitehorses]@CanIPleaseHaveOne

So Academics and Professors know more about prostitution than a prostitute?

Sorry - "know all about prostitution". So I presume the prostitute only knows one aspect, and they know the rest?

Interesting!

Explain how?

Academics like Belinda Brooks-Gordon study the full range of prostitution, not just one aspect of it. Someone like Mia Doring doesn't know what most prostitution is like, and they don't know that prostitution has become more violent in Ireland since 1993. In 1993 a law was passed in Ireland which severely restricted the activities of prostitutes. It drove women into the hands of pimps. Rachel Moran said this law caused a lot of suffering for women and she should know because she was one of those pimps. It is the people who wanted this law and other restrictive laws who are responsible for the increase in violence. Prostitution in Ireland pre 1993 wasn't particularly violent. The Nordic model just makes it worse.

They say that if prostitution is banned it won't go underground. According to Mia Doring's article it is flourishing in Nordic model Ireland.[/quote]
I speant quite a bit of time travelling to Dublin late 80s early 90s. I used to stay in the compnay flat on Pembroke Lane of Baggot St. I got to know two or three lovely women who were prostitutes in that area.

Judging by their faces over those years I would say it was plenty violent.

CanIPleaseHaveOne · 22/02/2022 19:49

*off

shethatmustnot · 23/02/2022 21:09

Was reading this excellent article by Mia Döring about her memoir and I had never realised that we only ever hear from prostituted women that sex work is work, its only ever them who put their names and faces to that idea. If its just a service thats being purchased why do men never come forward and say I'm a punter, I'm just buying a service, I'm going to let everyone know its a choice I make.

Why does it matter? Surely it's the opinions of prostitutes themselves that are most important in determining attitudes and policies that will affect them?

MargaritaPie · 23/02/2022 22:39

Just guessing but I'm sure clients (or "punters") do talk about it, but only to people whom they know are going to be "cool" about it.

Re the Nordic model and decriminalisation, I made some recent posts (on an older inactive thread by mistake) here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4278565-Sex-Work-Is-Work-is-a-shit-slogan?pg=9

To summarise my recent posts there, decriminalisation of sex work is supported by many health, anti-STD and anti-trafficking orgs as well as human rights orgs.

Decriminalisation supporters include Amnesty Int, World Health Org, UNAids, HIV Scotland , STOP AIDS, National Aids Trust, UN Women, ILO, the Global Commission on HIV and the Law, the UN Special Rapporteur on the Right to Health, Human Rights Watch, The Open Society Foundations, the Global Alliance Against Trafficking in Women and Anti-Slavery International.

stopaids.org.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/STOPAIDS-factsheet-sex-work.pdf

MargaritaPie · 23/02/2022 22:45

It could be comparable to recreational drug use. Someone who smokes cannabis may be open about it to his friends who also smoke it or whom he knows are ok about it. But he isn't going to mention it around the church minister or his employer or that person who openly has strong anti-drug views for example.

People adjust their topics of conversation depending on who they are with.

jennywhitehorses · 24/02/2022 13:57

@yellowtwo

Rachel Moran was NOT a pimp. She was coerced into prostitution by her boyfriend at the time.
She is an advocate for the Nordic Model.

Have you not read her book? I thought people like you are always saying we should listen to the survivors. Her book seems to be the one that is most often recommended. Yet you can't be bothered to read it, that's obvious because it doesn't say what you seem to think it says.

She says in her book in two different places that she ran her own escort agency in Dublin but gave it up because of the overheads (Chapter 10 page 93). She also said that she sold drugs to clients.

She didn't write that she was 'coerced into prostitution by her boyfriend at the time'.

jennywhitehorses · 24/02/2022 14:08

@yellowtwo

Could you tell me where you are getting this information from?
Prostitution in Ireland pre 1993 wasn't particularly violent.

Yes yellowtwo I can. First of all Rachel Moran's book Paid For which has very little to say about pimps (apart from she used to be one). She writes about the 'traumatic' effects of the 1993 law change. Secondly the 3 studies done in the 1990s by Ann-Marie O'Connor and her colleagues where sex workers state that there was a big rise in pimping after 1993.

Lots of people have said what happened, for example this comment from this webpage paper-bird.net/2013/09/05/ireland-and-damaged-belonging-from-magdalene-laundries-to-cupcake-scrub/

"The 1993 sexual offences criminalised soliciting (later reinforced by some aspects of the 1994 public order act) forcing independent sex workers STRAIGHT INTO THE ARMS of brothels and organised crime which had restructured itself to receive them for at least a year prior to the law being changed. This left sex workers who had formerly kept all their earning, or handed over 20% AT MOST with no choice but hand over 50% – 60% of their earning just to be able to go on earning a living at all and paying bills (at the time the law came into operation September, like most mothers, many of them were frantic to find the cash for school uniforms, books and quite often fees)."

2Gen · 24/02/2022 14:12

The way I see it, men who go to strip clubs, lap dance clubs, prostitutes and brothels and porn, dehumanise those women ( all women in some of their cases!) and are all using human beings as things! As mere objects to slake an urge on and an urge that is base at that! I agree that they won't die without it as there's a fair number of men who manage to stay celibate in the world!
I agree that sex isn't work, or shouldn't be! It should be a joyful act of mutual love and bonding. I've never heard of any little girl wanting to be a stripper, porn actress or a prostitute when she grew up anyway, not unless she had been groomed and systematically sexually abused through childhood! There may well be a few women who do t out of "choice" but, as most of them have also been victims of CSA, is it really and truly a choice, or have they just been trained? I know what I think!

jennywhitehorses · 24/02/2022 14:16

@CanIPleaseHaveOne

Judging by their faces over those years I would say it was plenty violent.

Ann-Marie O'Connor in one of her studies in the 1990s interviewed 77 drug addicted street prostitutes. She said more than once in this study that these women were not representative of prostitutes in general in Ireland.

"Numerous studies have highlighted the fact that women working in prostitution who are drug users, particularly intravenous drug users (IDUs), appear to be a different population from those who are non-IDUs."

The number of drug addicted prostitutes is a fraction of the total number of prostitutes. She also states all of the stress factors for drug addicted street based sex workers.

"Living with drugs causes considerable strains. A woman drug user who is also a mother faces specific problems organising her drug-related needs around her commitments as a parent, especially where young children are involved. Another dimension to the drugs issue for women is dealing with the reality of prison sentences for themselves, their partners, their siblings or their adult children. Prison sentences for drug related offences severely cut across family networks and reduce still further levels of support for women." O’ Neill, M. and O Connor, A.M. (1999)

MargaritaPie · 24/02/2022 17:28

"[Rachel Moran] says in her book in two different places that she ran her own escort agency in Dublin"

Interesting, I didn't know that.

Douglas Fox's civil partner runs (or used to run, I don't know if he still does) an escort agency in the NE and is constantly vilified for it.

3timeslucky · 24/02/2022 18:12

[quote jennywhitehorses]@CanIPleaseHaveOne

So Academics and Professors know more about prostitution than a prostitute?

Sorry - "know all about prostitution". So I presume the prostitute only knows one aspect, and they know the rest?

Interesting!

Explain how?

Academics like Belinda Brooks-Gordon study the full range of prostitution, not just one aspect of it. Someone like Mia Doring doesn't know what most prostitution is like, and they don't know that prostitution has become more violent in Ireland since 1993. In 1993 a law was passed in Ireland which severely restricted the activities of prostitutes. It drove women into the hands of pimps. Rachel Moran said this law caused a lot of suffering for women and she should know because she was one of those pimps. It is the people who wanted this law and other restrictive laws who are responsible for the increase in violence. Prostitution in Ireland pre 1993 wasn't particularly violent. The Nordic model just makes it worse.

They say that if prostitution is banned it won't go underground. According to Mia Doring's article it is flourishing in Nordic model Ireland.[/quote]
What are you on about? Rachel Moran was not a pimp and is in favour of the Nordic Model. She is absolutely opposed to the notion that prostitution is just a form of work.

How can an academic study "the full range of prostitution" and know more about what it is to be prostituted than someone who has actually had that experience? The function of academic research (and its limitations) are entirely different to personal experience (not just in being prostituted).

What you're saying makes no sense and appears to have no grounding in any form of reality.

nagsarse · 24/02/2022 18:41

@Lranrwt

I recently read some of the SAAFE forum posts (forum for sex workers). Assuming the posts are genuine, I was astonished at the number of posts describing the encounters in a positive way ( making reference to a man being a 'lovely' guy, an 'attractive' guy, good at oral sex, etc.). There was even a post lamenting the fact that the sex worker couldn't find a boyfriend as nice as some of her 'punters'. I would have thought being a sex worker was a miserable, boring, soul-destroying job.
The post lamenting that she couldn't find a boyfriend as nice as some of her punters may well say more about how awful the other men in her life have been than how nice the punters are. There was a documentary a few years ago about the Managed Zone in Leeds. Most of the women featured had a background of abuse, living in care etc. One said a particular punter was a really nice man- he kept telling her she could do better for herself and he cared about her etc. In one programme he persuaded her to go away with him for a weekend 'as friends' where he used her for sex then left her with no money and miles from home.
yellowtwo · 24/02/2022 19:04

jennywhitehorses

None of those links say prostitution wasn't particularly violent pre 1993.

nightwakingmoon · 24/02/2022 19:07

Question for @jennywhitehorses @MargaritaPie:

If as you argue most “sex workers” aren’t exploited or trafficked but it’s just like a job, why shouldn’t we (as a society) then judge them pretty harshly for providing an immoral service? A “service” that is harmful socially and destructive to other women, children and families?

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Either women are exploited in the sex trade and we need to support them to exit it. OR if they are doing it perfectly willingly as a service, then don’t they deserve to be judged harshly for providing an illegal, destructive and antisocial “service”, akin to drug dealing (illegal and destroys families and relationships), or unpalatable and exploitative, akin to, say, working at a tobacco company selling carcinogenic products?

Which is it? Are these women exploited or exploiters? Because “paid sex is great for everyone and just like a normal job” is clearly rubbish — and so one has to wonder what kind of ethical side you think “sex workers” are on. Where do the men come in, here?

Winederlust · 24/02/2022 19:50

[quote jennywhitehorses]@CanIPleaseHaveOne

Judging by their faces over those years I would say it was plenty violent.

Ann-Marie O'Connor in one of her studies in the 1990s interviewed 77 drug addicted street prostitutes. She said more than once in this study that these women were not representative of prostitutes in general in Ireland.

"Numerous studies have highlighted the fact that women working in prostitution who are drug users, particularly intravenous drug users (IDUs), appear to be a different population from those who are non-IDUs."

The number of drug addicted prostitutes is a fraction of the total number of prostitutes. She also states all of the stress factors for drug addicted street based sex workers.

"Living with drugs causes considerable strains. A woman drug user who is also a mother faces specific problems organising her drug-related needs around her commitments as a parent, especially where young children are involved. Another dimension to the drugs issue for women is dealing with the reality of prison sentences for themselves, their partners, their siblings or their adult children. Prison sentences for drug related offences severely cut across family networks and reduce still further levels of support for women." O’ Neill, M. and O Connor, A.M. (1999)[/quote]
That first quote doesn't say what you think it says. In fact it doesn't say anything other than there are different 'types' of prostitutes.
I may be missing something but I'm not really clear on what point you're making with the second quote?

yellowtwo · 24/02/2022 19:53

And also Jennywhitehorses

The author says the women in the study are not presented as a representative sample of women working in prostitution- the study was specifically about drug using women in prostitution.

LauriePartridge4Eva · 24/02/2022 20:15

Both Protestants in the North and Catholics in the South.

Not sure what their faith has to do with wanting the Nordic model?? (FYI, Catholics outnumber Protestants in the North)

MargaritaPie · 25/02/2022 01:41

"If as you argue most “sex workers” aren’t exploited or trafficked but it’s just like a job, why shouldn’t we (as a society) then judge them pretty harshly for providing an immoral service? A “service” that is harmful socially and destructive to other women, children and families"

Loaded question.