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Feminism: chat

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Had never considered this aspect of the sex work is work movement

111 replies

miri1985 · 20/02/2022 20:38

Was reading this excellent article by Mia Döring about her memoir and I had never realised that we only ever hear from prostituted women that sex work is work, its only ever them who put their names and faces to that idea. If its just a service thats being purchased why do men never come forward and say I'm a punter, I'm just buying a service, I'm going to let everyone know its a choice I make.
She writes really well in this article and I'm going to be very interested to read her book

www.independent.ie/life/health-wellbeing/mia-doring-on-the-irish-sex-trade-seeing-you-is-a-hobby-they-feel-entitled-to-indulge-41360309.html

Why are we not talking about these men? Why are they not talking? In the debates about prostitution, we do not hear from them. They don’t ‘come out’. They don’t create associations or campaign for ‘punters’ rights’. If punting is the legitimate and harmless hobby they claim it to be, why not?
There is a lot of money to be made from operating brothels and running an escort website. Advertising is very expensive – one ‘online directory’ of women in prostitution had a turnover of €6m in 2015. The men pay around a €100 for 30 minutes of sex with a woman, around €200 for an hour. And with more than 100,000 punters, there is obviously no shortage of male demand for women’s bodies.

We know that most women in the sex trade are not there voluntarily, and when we understand sexual consent to be freely given, voluntary and reversible, it is inarguable that when people defend the sex trade in Ireland, they are defending the daily rape of women and girls. The pimps who run the websites become multi-millionaires by serving up a literal rape market.

She also did an excellent interview with Roisin Ingle about her book

www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/irish-men-are-raping-women-for-money-all-across-the-country-1.4797680

"Her argument is that paying for sex does not legitimise the act or make it consensual. “You can’t pay someone to be your friend,” she says. “You don’t have a ‘rent a friend’ scheme, because it’s never going to be mutual. Our expectations are on the floor when it comes to men’s behaviour, especially sexually. We say, ‘Ah, that’s just men, they pay for sex.’ But prostitution sex is not sex, because sex cannot be paid for. And sex is not work.”

She knows there are people, sex workers and their advocates, who argue strongly that it is indeed work, but she has a very different view. “They can call themselves sex workers if they want. I don’t care. I care about the vast majority of women in the sex trade, and that’s all I care about. The vast majority of them are coerced or there by trafficking or there out of desperation, poverty, abuse and addiction.”

She says in the book that as long as we’re all distracted, arguing over whether prostitution is ‘work’, we’re not thinking of the choices of the men running the sex trade for profit. As the debate rages, “these men can sit back and laugh, knowing they have nothing to fear.”

Some sex-worker advocates, she maintains, describe men who want to “connect”, who are in need of touching. The lonely or the elderly, the socially isolated. But, she says, in the four years she spent ‘servicing’ random men, she never met anyone who just needed to talk or needed a hug. These are the men she met: “In their 40s and 50s, middle class, self-assured and entitled.”

“Even if 100 per cent of punters were wheelchair-ridden, chronically lonely, altruistic philanthropists, they have no right to use a woman’s body to have an orgasm. Nothing gives anyone that right. To achieve orgasm is not a right. Sex is neither a bodily need nor a right.”

OP posts:
Per63 · 23/07/2025 13:37

Joolsin · 20/02/2022 22:35

I thought the bit where she was in the man's house and she misunderstood when he asked 'what do you do?' was heartbreaking. There is no justification for prostitution, so smoothing it over by calling it sex work, by invoking the 'happy hooker' myth, is just bullshit.

"no justification"? Well, how many books on the trade have you read? There are quite a few, including by people working in the trade (or having done it) and defending their choice.

Per63 · 23/07/2025 13:41

Lranrwt · 21/02/2022 20:52

Men aren't going to support the 'work' theme because that would shatter the illusion that these women 'enjoy' their encounters with them.

But men may be as different as women? Including have different opinions on important life choices…

Per63 · 23/07/2025 13:53

2Gen · 24/02/2022 14:12

The way I see it, men who go to strip clubs, lap dance clubs, prostitutes and brothels and porn, dehumanise those women ( all women in some of their cases!) and are all using human beings as things! As mere objects to slake an urge on and an urge that is base at that! I agree that they won't die without it as there's a fair number of men who manage to stay celibate in the world!
I agree that sex isn't work, or shouldn't be! It should be a joyful act of mutual love and bonding. I've never heard of any little girl wanting to be a stripper, porn actress or a prostitute when she grew up anyway, not unless she had been groomed and systematically sexually abused through childhood! There may well be a few women who do t out of "choice" but, as most of them have also been victims of CSA, is it really and truly a choice, or have they just been trained? I know what I think!

You "have never heard"… Well, what about Tracy Quan? Or Rocky Emerson? You know what you think. But do you know what you know?

Per63 · 23/07/2025 14:02

nightwakingmoon · 25/02/2022 19:40

You must understand my point perfectly well, MargaritaPie. And many posters have talked you through all of this before.

The selling and buying of sex is degrading and corrosive in itself, MargaritaPie. The commercialising and objectifying of human bodies is in itself wrong and unethical. Just like buying and selling other socially harmful things - like drugs or tobacco.

Most women who do it are desperate or exploited and no one could judge them for it - they should be helped to leave.

Women who decide to do it as a fun job like any other? I doubt there are many of them, but if there were, why shouldn’t we judge them as harshly as anyone who made a choice to sell something damaging and unethical?

Families and relationships are destroyed by prostitution. (Do you think all the men who use prostitutes are single?) It contributes to porn and rape culture, and the acceptance of sexual violence, when women’s bodies are thought of as pieces of sex for rent. Just as buying and selling human bodies in any other way is exploitative and deeply unethical.

It is damaging to all of us when human women are thought of as objects for purchase for sex. I feel deep compassion for the women in the sex industry who are trafficked or coerced or ended up in that situation with few options, addicted or in poverty.

I do not feel compassion for the (mostly imaginary?) happy hooker who supposedly becomes a prostitute for the money and work like any other job. That’s colluding in something intrinsically unethical for women and girls and for everyone in society. I’d judge that just as I’d judge anyone - and I’ve known a few well-to-do men who do - who trades knowingly in unethical industries just for the money.

I suspect, however, that the happy “Belle du Jour” hooker is almost entirely a myth. Who you are really shilling for is pimps and male exploiters; you’re the supporter of an evil and immoral trade in women and girls as pieces of sexual meat for men’s use. I don’t care if you rationalise it as all about some silly individualist capitalist notion that selling your body cheaply for tiny bits of money is somehow empowering. (Ever hear of a woman getting really rich and powerful out of prostitution?)

You’re on the side of exploiters, human slavers, pornographers, criminals and violent and abusive men. That’s who you’re with. You are part of the problem. Why should we listen to any of your spurious twisted “justifications” of how fantastic prostitution is? We all know quite well what it is, and so do you.

Words, lots of them. But hardly any sane talk and no research. Bullying people into submission, just because your view of the world says one thing and mine another, that isn't very pretty.

Waitwhat23 · 23/07/2025 14:06

Per63, this thread was last active in February 2022. Given it's a zombie thread, the posters you are replying to may not still be on here.

Per63 · 23/07/2025 14:10

nightwakingmoon · 28/02/2022 13:04

[quote jennywhitehorses]@nightwakingmoon

Your disingenuous pro-sex-trade shilling for men who buy women's bodies isn't loaded though, I expect....?

If MargaritaPie is a shill then there are many others who are shills. Have you heard of Emily Kenway the expert in trafficking? She is the author of The Truth About Modern Slavery. She believes in decriminalisation like MargaritaPie.

Have you heard of Oxford Professor Amia Srinivasan? Or researchers
Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon and Professor Nick Mai? They all believe in decriminalisation. Are they all shills for the punters?

Men don't buy women's bodies. They pay for a service. A lot of the time it doesn't involve penetrative sex. If a masseur uses her hands to massage a man and then uses her hands to bring him to orgasm, when does the buying of a body come in? She's using her hands just like lots of people in their jobs. They still own their bodies.[/quote]
Yes, I’ve read those people (MargaritaPie is often recommending them around these parts). Not sure why you’re including Srinivasan with them, as she works in a very different field. (She’s one of my colleagues in fact, and I don’t like her work either - it’s quite poorly thought through and really doesn’t remotely deserve the hype.) For the others, yes, they are equally disingenuous shills for men’s rights. I’m afraid there’s not much point quoting mediocre academic work at academics who know the field.

The exact same things too that MPie recommends on numerous different threads. You seem very much in sync.

So, have your read their books? Do you want to learn more?

Per63 · 23/07/2025 14:12

nightwakingmoon · 28/02/2022 13:24

I’m an academic and I know the field. There isn’t much point in recommending mediocre stuff to me. It’s hardly going to convince me any more that it did when MargaritaPie recommended exactly the same old (very limited) stuff.

You know the field? You do? Then prove it. Give us a link to something credible that we can read.

Waitwhat23 · 23/07/2025 14:23

Waitwhat23 · 23/07/2025 14:06

Per63, this thread was last active in February 2022. Given it's a zombie thread, the posters you are replying to may not still be on here.

@Per63

Per63 · 23/07/2025 17:30

Waitwhat23 · 23/07/2025 14:06

Per63, this thread was last active in February 2022. Given it's a zombie thread, the posters you are replying to may not still be on here.

Thanks. I didn't need a reply, only make some points that were lacking in the discussion. In case other people discovers this thread, as I did. All the best.

Per63 · 23/07/2025 17:31

Waitwhat23 · 23/07/2025 14:23

@Per63

Thanks. Just in case someone will discover the thread in the future. :-)

Valeriekat · 26/07/2025 15:15

nightwakingmoon · 28/02/2022 13:33

I don’t think you understand very well how academia works. Before you read anything else, I’d suggest going back to some basic feminist and social theory, and starting from first principles - all the usual, from de Beauvoir onwards. Plenty of reading lists in introductory feminism and sociological analysis available everywhere online.

The mistake people in academia make is to think feminism is an intellectual pursuit when it is not.

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