Are things better or worse now than in recent decades?

[Leafstamp]

Not sure if this has been discussed before…

I feel things are worse for women now than at any other point in my adult life (I’ve been an adult for nearly 30 years).

But I don’t know if it’s me having rose tinted spectacles and just being ignorant in my younger years.

Reasons I think it’s worse: general misogyny, porn, police issues, infiltration of women’s spaces and services by males.

Am I missing all that has improved? What is better for women now than 10, 20, 30 years ago?

Phew found it!

Tina heath joined 79 baby 80.

Wrong person but didn't imagine the whole thing!

Note- may be other inaccuracies. Due to being 7 at the time!

Janet Ellis left BP because she was pregnant. But she wasn’t pregnant with Sophie EB.

Seasonschange that's how I remember it as well.

My own experience, my driving instructor groped me during every single drive. Found excuses to always touch me, hands on my thigh, accidentally brushing against boobs, that kind of thing. When I mentioned it, all adults said that oh yes, X, yes he's known for that. Nothing was done, everybody just thought this was normal to have an instructor who will harass girls (I was 17) and women.

I am not naive, I'm pretty sure it still happens, but I (and hopefully many other people) would go ballistic if I heard about a case like that, instead of just chuckling that ah well X, what is he like..

Overall, I agree with Warblerinwinter and DisillusionedTech.

Born in the 50s, I’ve seen gains and losses for women over the decades.

I was first employed on a lower wage than men doing exactly the same job. Back then, women weren’t allowed to apply for a mortgage (even if they could afford one), and meeting places such as pubs could refuse to admit a woman on her own in case she was a prostitute!

Women’s Liberation made terrific gains in the 70s, supported in some ways by a general social trend towards more equality. Really blatant, open inequality that shocks people now became illegal.

But even after the Equal Pay and Sex Discrimination acts, women I knew would lose jobs or promotion they’d been offered, to less competent men who applied after them — and of course wouldn’t ever leave to have children. We learnt never to believe anything till you’ve got it in writing. We couldn’t prove anything.

Still, as time went on, things seemed to make terrific progress right up until quite recently.

I hoped all the regressive ‘pink princess’ stuff for girls was a silly fad that would quickly fade. Now, it looks like a bloody gateway to dependence on make-up, cosmetic surgery and all the social-media image crap.

And I was stunned by how quickly pornography became normalised in the internet, and spread everywhere. Disastrous for women and children — violence and abuse becoming accepted.

I won’t get onto the gender identity movement.

I think it's very mixed.

On the downside the porn thing is huge and affects attitudes to women at a deep level.

I don't think the fact that some women have very intense make-up looks is itself so bad - there have always been some women who prefer that kind of look, and there are still lots of women who wear no or minimal make up and have simple hair, etc.

But what I do find more concerning is the lengths that the very feminine looks go to in terms of cosmetic surgery, body modification, etc. Arguably this is something that is not just about women and has other manifestations, but it's effects on women are somewhat specialized.

Women who want to work have it better overall but on the other hand women who want to stay home with kids or work for themselves domestically are worse off by a fair margin.

Sexual harassment etc are a difficult one for me. In some ways it's better, people have higher expectations. On the other hand I am not sure I actually like the way men and women interact better overall. That's a personal preference though.

Rape prosecutions clearly aren't doing well though my intuition is that is not about attitudes to rape so much as changes in technology and how crime is dealt with more generally.

WORSE. I agree with pp who say widespread porn is responsible.

90s was peak time to be a female teen . It was a perfect bubble of empowering 'grunge' fashion and no social media or online porn. You could genuinely be who you wanted.

I'm not so sure about the 90s. I knew so many girls whose favourite film was Pretty Women. It's about a sleazy rich man who hires a prostitute. Would never go down well today.

Same with Dirty Dancing. Patrick Swayze was practically a pedo in it!

@EightWheelGirl

Same with Dirty Dancing. Patrick Swayze was practically a pedo in it!

Hardly, he was less than 10 years older from the perspective of the film.

But he was clearly mid 30s and she was in high school.

Mid eighties I used to build scaffolding for major gigs, about 25% of the workforce women. Doubt it is even the same now.

Shaven Ravens used to be rather a niche perversion, now it is normal.

Outside of the CS and a few big corporations life is the same or worse. Women care for NMW and men labour for a wee bit more.

My princess role model was Princess Anne who competed in the Olympics and had a HGV licence.

@EightWheelGirl

I'm not so sure about the 90s. I knew so many girls whose favourite film was Pretty Women. It's about a sleazy rich man who hires a prostitute. Would never go down well today.

Have you seen the marry for love or money threads on this place?

It would go down fantastically with all those Love Island fans

But Love Island is basically chav fodder. Plenty of educated women loved PW.

@EightWheelGirl

But Love Island is basically chav fodder. Plenty of educated women loved PW.

All the super woke, very educated, young things in my office love Love Island.

I hate both but at least love island makes no pretence of what it is.

@EightWheelGirl

But Love Island is basically chav fodder. Plenty of educated women loved PW.

Yep, your average Chiswick housewife - get an education and a good job, marry rich man, spend life standing in larder eating the DC's snacks may have loved it BUT Is that really an advance for women? Why did some educated women glorify prostitution, embrace the idea that Price Charming would whisk them off their feet and save them from a life of having to work hard to be the equal of men?

Is equality different among different classes/ social economic / ethnic groups?
Who have we left behind?

Yep, your average Chiswick housewife - get an education and a good job, marry rich man, spend life standing in larder eating the DC's snacks may have loved it
BUT
Is that really an advance for women? Why did some educated women glorify prostitution, embrace the idea that Price Charming would whisk them off their feet and save them from a life of having to work hard to be the equal of men?

Is equality different among different classes/ social economic / ethnic groups?
Who have we left behind?

Tbh, I'm not even sure what you're getting at but you don't seem to like SAHM.

What does 'an advance for women' even really mean? Which women?

It's good that I can do a man's job in today's world but the reality is that most women don't actually want to. I love trucks and getting paid to cruise along listening to music but none of my friends or any other women I've met actually want to work in proper mens jobs. Maybe in the office in a male sector or walking around with a clipboard but not actually getting covered in oil and being outside in the cold and rain.

As far as women mainly wanting to find a good husband, I think there are always some people for whom finding a partner is more important than a career.

I suspect that kind of thing won't change much. In some ways we are less accepting that some people find that really important.

@EightWheelGirl

But he was clearly mid 30s and she was in high school.

In the film, Baby is supposed to have just graduated from high school, and Johnny is supposed to be 25. Patrick Swayze was actually 34 and Jennifer Grey was 27.

I think on the surface some of 90s and 80s popular culture can seem more egalitarian but it really wasn't. Like the ladette culture of the 90s where women were sold a "fantasy" that the ultimate accolade was to be "one of the lads" at the same time as zoo and nuts were publishing the most vile misogyny. It was an illusion.

A lot of legal rights and norms for women have changed only very recently - Being able to buy a house as a single woman, marital rape, rights of lesbian partners, maternity rights, support for childcare costs, have all changed significantly over the last 40 years.

At the same time, a lot of today's progress is illusory. As with racism. The racists and misogynists have just changed the way they play the game. They're still the ones in charge.

@LobsterNapkin

As far as women mainly wanting to find a good husband, I think there are always some people for whom finding a partner is more important than a career.

I suspect that kind of thing won't change much. In some ways we are less accepting that some people find that really important.

I feel like careers used to serve a purpose in life, whilst for many they now serve as the purpose of life.

Men’s ambitions seems largely driven by the end game. Driving a nice car, providing well for the family, etc. However, a lot of women nowadays seem primarily focused on competing with men in order to fulfil some sense of justice/equality. I wonder if this is why women’s self reported happiness seems to be falling the closer they get to equality.

It makes sense that happiness will not necessarily come from experiencing the difficult aspects of another’s life without sharing the goals those sacrifices were made to enable.

Worse.

And what's even worse is the young women of today who were born in the 90s/00s that had the luxury of enjoying the previous hard won rights are now supporting misogyny.

My 25 year old dd just doesn't see the inequality. It doesn't exist apparently.

My 25 year old dd just doesn't see the inequality. It doesn't exist apparently.

She doesn’t see the emperor’s patriarchal oppression cloak. She realises that the emperor is in fact naked.

My 25 year old dd just doesn't see the inequality. It doesn't exist apparently.

Maybe she just hasn't had DC yet?

Pre DC I believed you could just go and get equality, post DC I realised that having it all was not possible.

@MrsMargaretBeaufort

Worse.

And what's even worse is the young women of today who were born in the 90s/00s that had the luxury of enjoying the previous hard won rights are now supporting misogyny.

My 25 year old dd just doesn't see the inequality. It doesn't exist apparently.

Exactly. They will swear up and down that it’s their choice to wax all their pubes and bleach their arseholes. And of course women have the right to do that if they wish, but don’t pretend it’s anything other than porn. Before porn was readily available very few people worried about their pubes beyond their bikini line. Now porn is everywhere and no women under 30 have pubes.