Are things better or worse now than in recent decades?

[Leafstamp]

Not sure if this has been discussed before…

I feel things are worse for women now than at any other point in my adult life (I’ve been an adult for nearly 30 years).

But I don’t know if it’s me having rose tinted spectacles and just being ignorant in my younger years.

Reasons I think it’s worse: general misogyny, porn, police issues, infiltration of women’s spaces and services by males.

Am I missing all that has improved? What is better for women now than 10, 20, 30 years ago?

[Kummerspeck]

@Warblerinwinter

I think it’s a mixed bag compared to 30 to 40 years ago
On paper legally there are more rights - e.g. recognition of other forms of abuse as criminal charges offences, maternity rights, and along with that employment rights and policies in most companies such as zero tolerance for even low level sexual discrimination and harassment . t

However that is on paper…we all know that having protections is one thing , getting that protection is another
Rape cases is an interesting one. Rape was reported far less and people were treated appallingly by the police. Again it seems that has improved and certainly there are more reports (even if we know lots of women still don’t come forwards) but now these cases just get dropped and prosecution rate is terrible.

But some stuff is actually appallingly worse: the pornification of society - violent sexual behaviour being treated as the norm, child abuse through internet seems to be actually common, exposure of younger children and teens to graphic porn , pressure on young women to look a certain way and objectified. Even TV content on main stream is much more graphic in its objectification of women’s bodies with programs like love island etc. My mum died in 2000, she was a 70’s feminist and I often think she’d be horrified with TV consent now, so it shows just how quickly it has changed.
The whole gender identification piece is walking us firmly back to gender stereotyping- it’s in its very definition. When I had young children the early learning centre had been pushing for years to remove gendered toy branding…where did all that go ..it seems a pink and princess proliferation now. I just don’t get why men who want to sores themselves in a feminine way don’t get that their problem is actually gender in itself- without gender stereotyping no one would bat an eyelid how they expressed themselves…

I think this sums it up for me. I was a teenager in the late 70s and a young woman in the 80s but sometimes feel positively Victorian in my disapproval
It seems that the negatives like porn, objectifying women, groping, etc used to be shameful but are far more overt now.

[KatharinaRosalie]

PicsInRed fair enough, I was specifically thinking about workplaces, as was just discussing it. And I do believe at least there, things have improved and the 'banter' and wandering hands of male colleagues are not as acceptable as they were.

[CanIPleaseHaveOne]

I watched an old Tom Cruise film the other night called The Firm. The female lead was covered for the whole film, never flashed a breast/nipple, never had the close up of sitting on the loo, never showed her bottom etc. A lead actress today would never get away with showing so little!

Also rape - it is a story line in almost every show on TV. When I look at older films and tv shows if there is any interaction between a young girl and an older man I am waiting for the abuse to start. It does not. In our modern ones it is ALWAYS present and in a way, an expectation or acceptance of that is locked into the common psyche.

On the other hand we have many more work rights etc. Only until you go great though!😅

[CanIPleaseHaveOne]

*grey!

[NotDavidTennant]

I think people have lost perspective on how bad things were for women in the past. My mum left my abusive father in the late 80s and there was very little social support for her. Even her own parents thought she was failing in her 'wifely duties' and should go back to him. A decade or two earlier and it probably wouldn't have even be practically possible for her to leave.

[Shedmistress]

Also rape - it is a story line in almost every show on TV. When I look at older films and tv shows if there is any interaction between a young girl and an older man I am waiting for the abuse to start. It does not. In our modern ones it is ALWAYS present and in a way, an expectation or acceptance of that is locked into the common psyche

I was waiting for this in the Queen's Gambit, but no, the caretaker just played chess with her. It really hit home just how we expect it these days.

[Luredbyapomegranate]

@WhiteVanWoman91

Way better nowadays. I think most women would get a shock if they were transported back 30-40 years ago. Dealing with things everyday which would absolutely not fly with HR nowadays.

Yes I’d agree. Think there are a lot of rose tinted glasses here.

I was a late 80s teen. I remember women being utterly shafted by divorce, and most of my mums friends having no professional training, experience, or capacity to earn a living. Sexual harassment - everywhere. No one thought anything of it. Victim blaming was standard unless you were Jane Austin levels of innocent. Workplaces were deeply male and deeply sexist.

90s more women in work place, divorce deals better. Ladette culture had its downsides but it reduced double standards. Still a lot harassment in workplace. Pornification culture starting.

2000s more women in senior positions. Working mother’s much more common, but little awareness of men taking on parenting. Sexual harassment still bad, but tilt to more female workspaces better.
Online misogyny on the up. Pornification culture building.

Last 10 years - moves towards men doing more at home, more PT, more awareness that gender equality is complex. Sexual harassment, treatment of rape victims - still crap but awareness of scale of problem getting better. Online misogyny still a huge issue but awareness better. Pornification culture horrendous but awareness of it much better. Erosion of biological femaleness a new issue.

Overall I’d absolutely say it’s better - mainly because women hold more power than ever before. Online misogyny is awful but a lot of it is just exposing what was always there. Pornification is awful but no worse than the sexual repression and punishment of women in earlier decades. Erosion of biological femaleness is a really worry, but I do think more balance will emerge.

[Teawithsugar40]

I would say it’s a mixed bag but generally worse these days. The workplace is much more high pressured and less flexible than it was in the late 90s/early 2000s. You could go to uni/retrain for a new career for a minimal cost, plenty of good careers still offered salaried training positions. Housing was cheaper, everyone/everything just seemed alot more relaxed generally. People are definitely more uptight, fearful and judgemental than they were back then. Everywhere, schools etc were far more relaxed back then. I think young women these days would be shocked by how much better things were generally if they could go back in time for 6 months. Things have changed massively which had led to important improvements in pockets but things have rather swung from one extreme to the other

[Teawithsugar40]

P.s. would say early 2000s were the best time, bad in the 90s no help towards childcare, tax credits, no online shopping etc so harder for parents but in 2000s still cheap/free education, tax credits and everything fairly relaxed/optimistic

[rampitup]

@ThisIsStartingToBoreMe

I think it's worse, much worse.

The availability of online pornography has been catastrophic for women I feel.

Absolutely this 100%. This cannot be said enough. It should be stated daily across all platforms. How does one even go about finding how to join campaigns to address this issue?

[EightWheelGirl]

Yes I’d agree. Think there are a lot of rose tinted glasses here.

I was a late 80s teen. I remember women being utterly shafted by divorce, and most of my mums friends having no professional training, experience, or capacity to earn a living. Sexual harassment - everywhere. No one thought anything of it. Victim blaming was standard unless you were Jane Austin levels of innocent. Workplaces were deeply male and deeply sexist.

90s more women in work place, divorce deals better. Ladette culture had its downsides but it reduced double standards. Still a lot harassment in workplace. Pornification culture starting.

^2000s more women in senior positions. Working mother’s much more common, but little awareness of men taking on parenting. Sexual harassment still bad, but tilt to more female workspaces better.
Online misogyny on the up. Pornification culture building.^

Last 10 years - moves towards men doing more at home, more PT, more awareness that gender equality is complex. Sexual harassment, treatment of rape victims - still crap but awareness of scale of problem getting better. Online misogyny still a huge issue but awareness better. Pornification culture horrendous but awareness of it much better. Erosion of biological femaleness a new issue.

Overall I’d absolutely say it’s better - mainly because women hold more power than ever before. Online misogyny is awful but a lot of it is just exposing what was always there. Pornification is awful but no worse than the sexual repression and punishment of women in earlier decades. Erosion of biological femaleness is a really worry, but I do think more balance will emerge.

Wholeheartedly agree.

I daresay that a lot of women also miss chivalry but won’t admit it!

[CheeseMmmm]

Better in loads of ways and worse in loads of ways.

Feels when we gain some things, we get pushed back in other ways.

Things are so different. I was born early 70s.

[CheeseMmmm]

Just skimmed the comments. I think-

The beauty thing has not changed. Cosmetic companies have got expert in inducing paranoia about discrete parts of body and pushing more and more ways to make them right. And there's more products and increased prices etc eg gel nails when used to be nail varnish.

So yes that's changed in some ways but to think it's totally different is way off.

Punk loads of makeup time effort to achieve look.
Ditto... New romantic, goth, mainstream looks.

Hair was a major time effort, ads all over the telly buy this that. Hair gel, hairspray. Back combing, colouring, adding things to make it stay like that. Aapri face pads!

Revealing clothes- miniskirts, crop tops, bodies etc etc. Mini stilettoes from about 11...

Through history. Corsets, eyebrow plucking, being slender has been big thing for decades. When I was growing up..Madonna, Debbie Harry, Annie Lennox, bananarama, Siouxie Sioux, human League women I mean slender great looking women everywhere and with looks that may look laid back to modern eye but weren't actually casually thrown on at all.

This dislike of modern popular looks for girls and young women. Well I think it isn't a good look at my mum did at the girls in the 80s. And generations before that! (I also think there's a classist side to it that I dislike).

[CheeseMmmm]

In many workplaces men are careful what they say, for sure.

BUT don't be fooled. Many/ most are toeing the line. And the underlying attitudes haven't changed. Before it was in your face. Now it's concealed, bubbling under. And that's a really insidious issue.

[Seasonschange]

I really think some of it is rose tinted glasses.

A few scenarios from the late 80’s / early 90’s from my friends /family:

police not investigating a reported assault which resulted in a broken arm because it was “a lovers tiff” and not “police business” (not that it matters but he wasn’t her lover).

Someone who’d had two sexual partners at 21 being openly referred to as “the town bike” in the local pub.

Being told by a boss that there wasn’t a job after maternity because having babies rotted the brain and he didn’t want her back.

Sexual harassment being done openly at work. Even nude calendars allowed in the office.

“Of course he’s getting a promotion before you, he’s got a wife to support” and generally much harder to be taken seriously / move up the payscales.

Maternity leave was much worse , it varied by company and wasn’t statutory I think till 90’s?

Having difficultly getting a mortgage without a husband

teachers openly sleeping with sixth formers


Just a few examples. We lived in a much more openly sexist society. At least now on paper we have better legal protections and I think the world of work has improved hugely for women.

I would agree that young women have a thousand more products for their appearance but a women’s worth being determined by her looks is nothing new.

Violent pornography and the internet has created a whole new depth of issues though.

[CheeseMmmm]

And as women have got more representation, opportunities, media time about loads of things about us successes, issues. Global news now the impact on women is included. And loads of stuff to do with subtle freedoms.

At the same time het porn has become more and more about male sexual dominance, stacks of women being hurt, degraded during sex in mainstream (slapped, hair pulled, spat on, anal standard now and so as no confusion the titles make clear the intent clear. And it's not about women enjoying it).

Plus while sex offences are being talked about reported etc. Stats are at massive low point. Then there's the normalisation of paying for sex, getting easy money through 'sex work', and loads of women/ girls where expectation is 'porn sex' and their pleasure is nothing to do with sex.

So yeah.

Things I think aren't better or worse. Just different.

And while loads of things are definitely way better. The reaction is grim.

[Seasonschange]

@tricervixtops

That's the crux of it all - why do young women love Love Island? Their 80s sisters can't get their heads around it. In the 80s things weren't great and there weren't many female role models but things were improving and we had hope of being taken seriously and achieving because we were smart and talented and strong.
Now we can hope to be successful by looking good in a bikini and judged for our social media presence. As long as men approve.
So much worse

This might be your memory of the 80’s but I think it’s rose tinted. I think many girls of the 80’s would have measured success by their ability to find a good husband.

[CheeseMmmm]

Agree with all of that seasons.

The things I remember as late primary/early secondary in 80s.

Pics of topless women everywhere you looked.
Mandy Smith and Bill Wyman being presented as fairytale romance.
Frequent inappropriate / really dodgy open leering, comments from men. Trying to chat you up when you were clearly about 12.
Loads of really sexist telly. Women often butt of joke. Benny hill, Cupid stunt. Women often presented as thick, shallow, hysterical etc. Ho ho ho.
Quiz shows etc had women who often never spoke. In tiny leotards to do whatever they could think of. Turn cards. Show off the prizes. That sort of thing. Doesn't she look lovely!

It was different.. Very different.

[sjxoxo]

@G5000

Much better. We were just talking with some colleagues about behaviour from male colleagues that was tolerated, if not expected, 20 years ago. You know, boys will be boys. Oh be careful with the boss, try not to stay alone with him late at night. Yeah, everybody knows about him, tends to grope a bit, he means no harm really.

None of my young female colleagues would accept this shit.

Where I am this is still somewhat normal. Not quite as blatant as your phrasing but definitely still there.. I work with alit of self employed successful men. No matter how good you are at being professional, they’re still inappropriate on the whole. you’re lucky. X

[CheeseMmmm]

I was a girl in the 80s and I don't agree with that generalisation.

It was before that, that things started to change.

We had loads of women in music with all sorts of messages.

Be who you want do what you want.
Men aren't the be all and end all.
Messages about freedom and also so many different women.

I mean stuff like
Salt n Peppa
Eurythmics
Madonna (I know loads will raise an eyebrow)
Kate Bush totally eccentric
And on and on forever.

It was brilliant

[CheeseMmmm]

I remember Janet Ellis not married pregnant blue Peter. Remember back then you didn't see pregnant women on TV ... Much if ever? Then.

A whole generation met Sophie with the blue Peter team in the hosp newborn

[CheeseMmmm]

Trying to remember

Greenham common on news
Other feminist marches and things too
Female prime minister (yes Thatcher still PM though)

[Seasonschange]

@CheeseMmmm

I remember Janet Ellis not married pregnant blue Peter. Remember back then you didn't see pregnant women on TV ... Much if ever? Then.

A whole generation met Sophie with the blue Peter team in the hosp newborn

Sophie was born in 1979, Janet joined blue Peter in 83 and left in 1987 the same year she gave birth to Jackson. She claims it was her choice but there was definitely pressure from people who didn’t want her “bad influence” coming through to children - being unmarried and all. Not quite as progressive as it first seems.

[CheeseMmmm]

I remember them going to hosp! Yes decades ago but if I imagined it then that's a worry!

[CheeseMmmm]

Quick Google I have obviously got a wonky childhood memory! Who the fuck was it then? I remember it clearly! Or different prog. Or just never happened and my brain created it...

Bit freaked out!