Are things better or worse now than in recent decades?

[Leafstamp]

Not sure if this has been discussed before…

I feel things are worse for women now than at any other point in my adult life (I’ve been an adult for nearly 30 years).

But I don’t know if it’s me having rose tinted spectacles and just being ignorant in my younger years.

Reasons I think it’s worse: general misogyny, porn, police issues, infiltration of women’s spaces and services by males.

Am I missing all that has improved? What is better for women now than 10, 20, 30 years ago?

[CheeseMmmm]

Wiki interesting!

Think you mean actresses expected to take clothes off/ sex scene in TV and film not they were expected to appear in porn mags/ vids, is that right?

[CheeseMmmm]

Yes just checking.

Obv now times have changed and when the word porn is used now it is understood to mean online and real iyswim.

Certainly porn mags etc still is understood! For sure.

I didn't know actresses then were supposed to make porn.

And I'm surprised that soft porn vids were not real sex. That's interesting. I might read up on that! I mean if you were going in a Mac to an XXX vid shop. And then get vid that is not real sex. Going to read as feels odd but I wasn't a consumer!

Did you see any back then? Or know another way?

[LobsterNapkin]

@CheeseMmmm

'But I think there is a measurable difference here with regard to women. In the 70s an actress could begin a career without feeling that she was going to be severely disadvantaged by not doing nudity, or should be open to performing pornographic material.'

If you mean simulated sex in film or telly. Yes the word pornographic about scenes is perfectly standard.

Porn though is actual sex not pretend. So when I read that I thought you meant actual porn. IE actual real sex filmed specifically for people to view for sexual gratification.

I mean I don't think actresses were expected to do that then so worth mentioning I think.

Remember the Helen mirren Parkinson interview! Reading your post I thought of that!

Porn doesn't have to show actual sex. It doesn't even have to have people pretending to have sex. Penthouse magazine was porn, most of the photos were just one woman with little or no clothing on, in a suggestive pose.

And soft-core porn never had real sex, and you didn't see penetration. That's basically what you will see now on tv shows like GoT or that annoying Irish one that was on this past year.

[CheeseMmmm]

Yes lads mags FFS.

It was the norm to have porn top shelf so normal for children everyone to see.

I went in a shop with a top shelf the other day not seen for ages and was taken aback! Must be fairly rare now?

While I was looking and before realised unexpected porn. I saw that the section I was looking at was all featuring 'mature' women the one right where I was standing was grannies!

So that's a change. I suppose with internet that's a bit niche and harder to find online?

God imagine buying one! It would be mortifying surely.

[CheeseMmmm]

@Cakemonger

We are in a backlash. The backlash always happens as a response to progress. So some things are better and some things are worse. I do see things being called out a lot more than when I was growing up though, which gives me hope.

I believe that the changes re women and girls have been forced though. They didn't come due to broad changes in society meaning some things were just obviously unpalatable. They were lobbied for, legislated for, protested for. By women usually only women.

We had very few channels then and two were state broadcaster. A remit for balance and catering to broad audience. Broadcasting in those days TV was known for being a 'right on' sector.

Changes really caused a lot of anger pushback etc. Bloody feminists. Spoiling the fun as usual. Prudes, killjoys, man haters etc.

Yes attitudes have shifted in society on a lot of the areas changed for or because of women.

But not nearly as much as it seems on the surface. And for many not at all.

There a lot of resentment mainly from men but also some women about some or all of it. I mean work, women in bikinis holding cards on quiz shows, more in work including jobs with more opportunities / higher pay. In jobs that used to be totally or usually male. Things like that.

This resentment esp at work has to be hidden. And that is really dangerous.

When it comes to minority groups across the board being visible more. Has really narked a lot the group that saw things for people like them, having some people who are not like them.

And that is felt to be unfair, a threat, taking places that were for people like them. Who are only there because of diversity stats rather than merit.

And that's really worrying because the group that always saw things as for them and others like them. Still hold the vast majority of the representation, visibility, opportunities, money, power etc.

[pastypirate]

@Charlize43

I don't really understand the rampant sexualisation of young girls. All those Love Island strippers who end up taking pictures of themselves in their underwear and posting them on Instagram for likes. What's that about?

Female pop artists that dress and perform like lap dancers - what's that about?

I grew up in the 80s and singers like Alison Moyet, Patti Smith, Annie Lennox, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Suzi Quatro, Hazel O'Connor, Kate Bush, Toyah, etc... and I don't recall ever seeing any of them get near naked in order to sell records. So in a way, our teenage role models were a lot less sexualised.

I just don't get it: Boob jobs, big BJ Lips, Hair extensions; fake eyelashes and thick make-up seem to me to make young girls look more like dolls or sex objects.

This got really rabid in the 90's with lads mag culture.

[CheeseMmmm]

'But I think there is a measurable difference here with regard to women. In the 70s an actress could begin a career without feeling that she was going to be severely disadvantaged by not doing nudity, or should be open to performing pornographic material.'

If you mean simulated sex in film or telly. Yes the word pornographic about scenes is perfectly standard.

Porn though is actual sex not pretend. So when I read that I thought you meant actual porn. IE actual real sex filmed specifically for people to view for sexual gratification.

I mean I don't think actresses were expected to do that then so worth mentioning I think.

Remember the Helen mirren Parkinson interview! Reading your post I thought of that!

[Cakemonger]

We are in a backlash. The backlash always happens as a response to progress. So some things are better and some things are worse. I do see things being called out a lot more than when I was growing up though, which gives me hope.

[CheeseMmmm]

Again different to the general constant objectification of women.

Two subjects, one about increasing nudity sex on TV and the other about women.

Would be more than happy to discuss sex on TV now on another thread! There are distinctions for me in the context how done and dynamic though.

For me the massive rise in sexual violence against women being included, esp in USA output, is a real problem.

[CheeseMmmm]

I think that not liking to see general nudity/ sex scenes in TV progs etc is a different thing.

Back then it was constant sexual objectification of women. Often they were the butt of the joke including being seen by men when accidentally clothes fell off/ running out of shower with hands over boobs.

It was one way and constant.

And there was sex on TV. When young I remember sex in the singing detective, a Monty python thing, even though was decades ago.

Sure there was more if that's what I remember from decades ago when small!

[LobsterNapkin]

@EightWheelGirl

When you see sexual content on tv now it's more like what would have been thought of as porn before, it's basically simulated sex.

It's always been changing though, decade on decade. The soft porn esque 70s stuff would have been seen as truly indecent to audiences a few decades earlier.

Indeed. It's an area that's become worse overall and it's been going on for some time.

But I think there is a measurable difference here with regard to women. In the 70s an actress could begin a career without feeling that she was going to be severely disadvantaged by not doing nudity, or should be open to performing pornographic material.

That's not so much the case now. Young actresses are cutting off significant roles if they refuse that kind of material - I read an interview with Maggie Smith a few years ago saying she didn't think she could make a start as a young actress now because of the demands around nudity. Some shows have turned to actually hiring porn actresses because of the "demands" of the roles.

It's one of the things that IMO completely scuttled the MeToo movement in the film industry. Trying to fob off the problem by hiring intimacy coordinators is just that - avoiding the real issue. An industry tat involves basically breaking down barriers around sexual privacy is always going to have problems with sex in the business side too.

Which is to say - that while certain things are not so open in the workplace now, when it comes down to money, money is always the winner. Probably more so than in the past.

[Wanderingstars4238]

I think overall things are better. When I was in high school and early college I got sexually harassed pretty badly at work but never even thought of reporting these young men. Also a gay co-worker used to get harassed and called f** right in front of our supervisor, who stood up for the gay guy but never reported the slurs. Certain things were allowed back then that would never fly today.
I see an overall positive change in attitudes towards women with younger men I work around, too.
We have new problems women didn't have in the past as much, but I still think for the most part things are gradually improving and becoming less sexist. I'm in the United States so can only go by what I see here.

[TheElvishQueen]

Add to that this obsession that all women whatever their age should have long false talons which are redone every week and painted with glittery gel. I don’t get that either. What’s wrong with filing your own nails and painting them? It a French manicure. The thing for pouting in photographs. It’s all beyond me.
Women look more and more like blow up sex dolls.

[CheeseMmmm]

@Charlize43

I don't really understand the rampant sexualisation of young girls. All those Love Island strippers who end up taking pictures of themselves in their underwear and posting them on Instagram for likes. What's that about?

Female pop artists that dress and perform like lap dancers - what's that about?

I grew up in the 80s and singers like Alison Moyet, Patti Smith, Annie Lennox, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Suzi Quatro, Hazel O'Connor, Kate Bush, Toyah, etc... and I don't recall ever seeing any of them get near naked in order to sell records. So in a way, our teenage role models were a lot less sexualised.

I just don't get it: Boob jobs, big BJ Lips, Hair extensions; fake eyelashes and thick make-up seem to me to make young girls look more like dolls or sex objects.

For teens/ young men and women in particular, but across society more generally.

Celebrities, fashion, the styles in the various popular music genres. Film, trends imported from other countries etc and the vast array of messaging in media outlets of all types. Have a massive huge influence.

When I was 12 the prevailing fashion was white mini stilettoes, loads of, erm, boldly coloured eyeshadow. Blue eyeliner. Pastel and white clothes, miniskirts, crop tops etc.

Wham videos eg club Tropicana, wake me up before you Gogo take me right back

Royal wedding press interest in lady di prompted a large contingent of the female population of massive age range to get ducks arse haircuts

It's how most humans are esp when young. Not a good or bad thing. Just how it is.

That cuts across so many things, the massive influence of current culture.

Unless never look at old photos and think wtf was I thinking! Then not immune. Which is normal and fine.

Older girls and young women unfortunately are in a culture where porn is ubiquitous, getting kit off/ looking 'sexy' is empowering, making money from sexy images etc is easy money, and so on.

It's those who change the current fashions, norms, messaging etc widely that are the fundamental problem. Amongst others.

And there were plenty of women then who wore very revealing clothes/ did 'sexy'.

I'm surprised to see blondie and Kate Bush on the list. Yes they were awesome but in the end though different to now in terms of attitude. To bogstandard bloke still phwoar.

Blondie- wearing man's shirt no skirt trousers etc. Obv gorgeous talented amazing etc. Still hardly demure!

Kate Bush. Again love her. Baboushka? That is one hell of an outfit!

Madonna obv.

Was it legs and co on TOTP?

Plenty more as well..

[EightWheelGirl]

When you see sexual content on tv now it's more like what would have been thought of as porn before, it's basically simulated sex.

It's always been changing though, decade on decade. The soft porn esque 70s stuff would have been seen as truly indecent to audiences a few decades earlier.

[Charlize43]

I don't really understand the rampant sexualisation of young girls. All those Love Island strippers who end up taking pictures of themselves in their underwear and posting them on Instagram for likes. What's that about?

Female pop artists that dress and perform like lap dancers - what's that about?

I grew up in the 80s and singers like Alison Moyet, Patti Smith, Annie Lennox, Debbie Harry, Pat Benatar, Suzi Quatro, Hazel O'Connor, Kate Bush, Toyah, etc... and I don't recall ever seeing any of them get near naked in order to sell records. So in a way, our teenage role models were a lot less sexualised.

I just don't get it: Boob jobs, big BJ Lips, Hair extensions; fake eyelashes and thick make-up seem to me to make young girls look more like dolls or sex objects.

[PriamFarrl]

And don’t forget that up until the 90s a man had the right to have sex with his wife. It wasn’t rape if she was your wife.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

It is a lot better now than in the 80/ 90s.
I was raped on a date...but it wasn’t even recognised as rape in legal sense just bad sex for me and hence called regret not rape,
Also bisexuality was not recognised as a legitimate sexuality. LG was not accepted, but at least acknowledged. All of us bisexuals were considered to be closet lesbians/gays in denial.
There was the AIDS epidemic to deal with so rape could mean death sentence if infected with HIV.
Nuclear war between USA and USSR constantly threatened our very existence.
Jobs could not be had for anything yes today jobs are poorly paid zero hours but at least they exist. There were no jobs at all for youth.
Inflation and interest on debt was above 10%..so just shocking to try and pay basic necessities
Terrorist attacks and bombs were at their peak as was inner city violence and crime (no CCTV on metro or busses to keep you safe )
Sexism rampant in hiring and getting jobs. Sexual harassment was endemic and only way to get promoted was often through sexual favours.
Domestic violence was a private matter and police would do nothing if your partner felt like backhanding you for not washing up dishes fast enough or failing to iron or cook what he wanted

[CheeseMmmm]

And with a society which has changed a lot viewing it.

[CheeseMmmm]

Lobster yes.

The when where why etc is just totally different though.

[CheeseMmmm]

I think the opportunity to say unattractive dirty. Big hairy growlers. On a thread on feminism. Must have been something you felt compelled to post.

It's a great turn off phrase though. I like it! Sounds sort of cuddly.

[CheeseMmmm]

Eight. Come on. Hopeless.

One person. One! In an era when baths and showers as we know now were way into the future as hot running water in home just. Not a thing!
Plus other ways of washing exist. Shocker!

So that post was nonsense.

As for why assume woman who has sex with women.

'Don’t care if I get flamed but I think a big hairy growler isn’t attractive tbh. Times change and so do sexual fashions.'

That's hardly amiguous. Sex. Attractive. So another load of nonsense then.

[LobsterNapkin]

@deydododatdodontdeydo

Not sure what years made but loads of carry on on telly and mash repeats I assume. Films like police academy, porkies...

Someone upthread posted there was more gratuitous nudity these days which I find amazing.
In the 60s, 70s and 80s it often seemed like women were just in films to be the love interest and get their breasts out.
There's a lot less gratuituous toplessness or nudity these days.

I can see why people think there is. It's different. I was watching something the other day and noticing that there was more low-key gratuitous nudity. But it was fairly mild, just naked, and male bottoms as well as topless women.

When you see sexual content on tv now it's more like what would have been thought of as porn before, it's basically simulated sex.

[EightWheelGirl]

I’m sure even in the 90s violence, rape, and drug use were much more common. And the youth are generally much more tame outside of specific gang culture nowadays.

[PriamFarrl]

Yes it's changed. Moved to internet and away from that. But again. I think rose tinted view. Now bad then bad but in different way. Imo.

But what is available online is a world away from top shelf magazines of the 80s. Also a teenaged boy might have a couple of magazines but internet porn is readily available.

Oh, and it was Queen Elisabeth I that only bathed once a month. She was considered clean by the standards of the time. This was very recently in the 10,000 year human timeline and yet would be unthinkable today.

I was on a thread somewhere the other day where I said that back when I was a kid in the 70s and 80s it was normal to have a bath once a week. Younger people were shocked but older people agreed it was normal.