Feminism: chat
Self styled 'good men'
lifeissweet · 12/11/2021 14:29
I have had a conversation with a male friend recently. It went a bit like this:
Me: 'Men don't realise that they can scare, worry and intimidate women just by their presence sometimes.'
Him: 'think I do. I do things like cross the street if I'm walking behind a woman at night.
'Well yes. That's good, but I think even in less obviously dangerous situations. I don't think men know how their 'help' can come across.'
I gave the example of how I went to the petrol station to pump up my tyres. I do this often. I in no way look like I don't know what I'm doing. Yet a man decided to come over to offer his assistance.
'Well that's good, isn't it?'
'Not really, no. I found it massively patronising, when I think it highly unlikely he would have offered to help a bloke in the same situation - even if he didn't seem to know what he was doing. Then I felt I had to placate and offer gratitude so that I didn't piss him off and risk him turning aggressive.
These incidents happen all the time in various situations. Women accepting 'help' from men that they don't want or need for fear of repercussions if they refuse.'
'Well I would offer help, but I wouldn't get aggressive if you said no. Why would you assume that?'
'Experience - but also, by offering help to strangers, how do they know you are 'one of the good guys' and not one of the 'fuck off, ugly bitch, I was only being nice' arseholes? They can't, so don't put women in that situation and leave them alone unless they ask for your help.'
'Right. Ok. Don't help? That doesn't sound right. What about if I saw a woman who had broken down on the side of the road. Should I stop and help?'
'Would you do it for a man?'
'Depends on the situation, but probably not because he's not as vulnerable. There is a reason why the AA come to single females faster. They are more vulnerable.'
'But that's the point. I would find that quite uncomfortable exactly because I'm more vulnerable. I have roadside assistance, I would be in that position again of having a strange (quite large) man giving me attention I haven't asked for that would make me feel doubly vulnerable. Even more so at night or when there is no one else around.'
'But I'm not like that and if they wanted to be left alone, I'd just go.'
'But how would a woman know that?'
'I would still rather stop and help than leave her vulnerable, though.'
Ok...
Am I being over-sensitive and do other women feel like me, or is he seeing himself as 'the good guy' potentially causing women more discomfort?
Something about the 'nice guy' thing slightly gives me the creeps and I can't articulate quite why.
countrygirl99 · 12/11/2021 14:39
Men don't understand the apprehension because they never have to experience it. I find when you explain how different women's perceptions can be they get very confused because it's so far off a male perspective. They see someone they know will be vulnerable and want to help but if they aren't a rapist it just doesn't cross their mind that the woman doesn't know they aren't a rapist because they never have to worry about it.
lifeissweet · 12/11/2021 14:49
@AtrociousCircumstance
Nope. He wasn't and he was mildly irritated in tone by the end. The conversation stopped there because I could feel it taking a turn.
The conversation was exactly about me trying to explain that I (can't speak for all women) really don't like being in those situations and that he maybe could think about his 'helpful' behaviour a little more deeply and he basically dismissed it.
He has a bit of a knight in shining armour complex and does go out of his way to help (mainly women, but not only). It is from a good place, which is why he is offended by my opinion on it.
lifeissweet · 12/11/2021 14:51
@countrygirl99
This is also far too true, but what can you do when even the 'good' ones don't listen when someone says 'actually, be careful about offering help to lone women who might not want it, they might feel intimidated'?
PicsInRed · 12/11/2021 15:05
"Schrodinger's Rapist" is what he needs to read.
deadwildroses.com/2011/09/21/schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-a-guide-for-the-men/
It'll either change his life... or he is one of the bad ones and putting on a wide eyed "who me??!" show of "not getting it".
crochetmonkey74 · 12/11/2021 15:07
Yep - exDP was a self styled good guy but excused a lot of shitty behaviour of friends/ himself. When I would pose the question "OK, if it's OK would you be happy if you found out your Dad had done this?" He would become angry- which was a big sign that he knew it wasn't what 'good men' (his Dad being one in his eyes) did.
YOu can be the 'good guy' in a group of friends - but if it is a shallow gene pool, then they are still a crap one.
lifeissweet · 12/11/2021 15:12
@Brefugee
I know this one. I love it!
lifeissweet · 12/11/2021 15:18
@PicsInRed
deadwildroses.com/2011/09/21/schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-a-guide-for-the-men/
It'll either change his life... or he is one of the bad ones and putting on a wide eyed "who me??!" show of "not getting it".
That is really rather good. Thank you
LobsterNapkin · 12/11/2021 15:25
I get what you are saying OP, but I wonder what the outcome would be if he took to heart your words about scaring women.
Would he, for example, be one of the guys who stopped to help me when I had a tire blow out on a very rural highway on my way to work one day? Because I was quite grateful to the guy who stopped as I was having trouble getting the nuts off, and I was quite grateful to the farmer who came down the hill and offered to bring me up to his barn to use the compressor to inflate my spare tire which had also gone a little flat.
I guess my question is, aside from telling him what not to do, what is he meant to take away as to what he should do? I'd suspect that going forward he might not bother to say anything at all, for fear of saying the wrong thing or just being scary by being there. That's absolutely not speaking to my preferences as a woman and I suspect I might not be the only one.
SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 12/11/2021 15:31
I've got a colleague like this.
On quiet days in the office he likes to stomp on the floating floor as it makes a nice echo-y sound. Or he runs to make as much noise as possible. It's very annoying but also really intimidating as I have my back to the walk way.
I've raised it with him that I find it intimidating to suddenly hear feet pounding towards me (his desk is past mine so while he isn't coming towards me, he does have to pass me), or hear slow, heavy footsteps approaching that are unnaturally loud.
He laughed and said that I should know him better than that by now, which I do and I don't find him intimidating at all, but there are people who don't know him in our office from time to time and I probably would refuse to go back if I'd had this experience.
Tried to explain to him how it can be perceived but since he knows he isn't a threat, he thinks I'm over reacting
lifeissweet · 12/11/2021 15:37
@LobsterNapkin
Would he, for example, be one of the guys who stopped to help me when I had a tire blow out on a very rural highway on my way to work one day? Because I was quite grateful to the guy who stopped as I was having trouble getting the nuts off, and I was quite grateful to the farmer who came down the hill and offered to bring me up to his barn to use the compressor to inflate my spare tire which had also gone a little flat.
I guess my question is, aside from telling him what not to do, what is he meant to take away as to what he should do? I'd suspect that going forward he might not bother to say anything at all, for fear of saying the wrong thing or just being scary by being there. That's absolutely not speaking to my preferences as a woman and I suspect I might not be the only one.
Thank you, Lobster. This is exactly why I asked the question.
I didn't push him as far as 'never offer help to a woman unless she asks for it' because of these kinds of situations and I know that it might not be appropriate advice. He is, after all, harmless as far as I know (I do know him very well). I think I was trying to make him aware that women might feel uncomfortable and that he might need to adjust his behaviour with that in mind. Not to never help, but to be mindful of situations.
I think it's like it says in the Schroedinger's rapist article - being aware of when you are in situations when a woman is vulnerable and can't escape. To empathise with how she might feel and make himself as non-threatening as possible.
The conversation evolved from talking more generally about how men don't realise what women have to worry about and then the examples came up.
I just wanted him to look at things from that perspective because I, personally, would usually appreciate men leaving me alone unless I have explicitly suggested in some way that I'm in need. I have met too many nasty or pushy ones.
I do recognise that not all women feel that wary, though, and appreciate the help.
BillMasen · 12/11/2021 15:45
@PicsInRed
deadwildroses.com/2011/09/21/schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-a-guide-for-the-men/
It'll either change his life... or he is one of the bad ones and putting on a wide eyed "who me??!" show of "not getting it".
Good interesting article. Thanks for the link
Brefugee · 12/11/2021 16:48
Would he, for example, be one of the guys who stopped to help me when I had a tire blow out on a very rural highway on my way to work one day?
How about when i got back to my car after a football match to find a flat. I got my spare out and my toolbox. Several chaps moseyed on over to look and without exception they offered to help without being patronising twats. It went like this "you got this? or do you need a hand? maybe it would be quicker?" and i said "thanks, can you give me a hand getting the nuts off this wheel?"
Nobody was patronised, nobody acted like an arse, we chatted about football. (where, incidentally, nobody tried to tell me how the offside rule works etc). It is perfectly possible.
Cakemonger · 12/11/2021 18:42
It makes sense that you wanted him to factor in how women might feel in those situations. He still needs to decide what he should do in a given situation, you can't give a simple 'rule'. The fact that there is no perfect option is a result of society being so f*ed up. That's what he should be annoyed at.
KrispyKremeDream · 12/11/2021 20:42
Jesus Christ, far too much energy and thought invested in a simple situation where you just smile and say "I've got it under control, thanks."
And it's ludicrous to suggest that men don't feel apprehension. They're waaay more likely to be assaulted by a stranger or stabbed.
CheeseMmmm · 13/11/2021 01:41
This is really difficult. It's chicken and egg/ catch 22.
It's also really difficult to discuss as there's lots of inconsistencies/ nuances.
Personally in some situations I would appreciate an offer of help from a man who didn't set my radar off, who seemed pleasant and I didn't read as potentially aggressive etc.
But you can't make a standard do this, don't do that on that basis.
The reason many women and girls are way is to do with experiences they've had. Where men have approached and said something innocuous and got a polite response or yes thanks a hand would be nice. And then he's turned out to be. Anything from creepy to scary to pushy to inappropriate. And the ones who a polite no means they get aggressive.
So we feel like that because some men are dodgy and so are wary full stop. But then that won't change until way fewer men are like that but when they try we feel wary and they think why did I bother etc etc.
KrispyKremeDream · 13/11/2021 12:15
@CheeseMmmm
I don't think this applies to 'most women and girls' tbh. Most women aren't as terrified of men as feminists are, and feminists make up a small proportion on women - 7% I think. I'm more than happy for a bloke to help me lift off my pickup truck tyres and undo bolts. They're heavy!
KrispyKremeDream · 13/11/2021 12:33
Looking at recent figures, it appears men are now 3x more likely to face stranger violence, not 4x anymore.
Women face the most domestic violence at 0.3% vs 0.1% of men, but 2% of men experience other violence, which is a little over 6.5x the frequency of the DV that women face.
All these estimates are likely massively underreported. Studies have shown that men are around twice as likely as women not to report DV and there are certainly many women that don't report.
stranger violence showed the largest difference in victimisation between men and women (1.2% compared with 0.4% respectively)
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/thenatureofviolentcrimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2020#groups-of-people-most-likely-to-be-victims-of-violent-crime
KrispyKremeDream · 13/11/2021 12:57
I'm not sure. I remember that only 9% of sexual assaults happened in places like parks and something like 60% was at home. And usually somebody known to victim. So walking around at night shouldn't be the main fear. You should be more scared at home, and in terms of general violence should be more wary of your husband than of strangers.
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