Self styled 'good men'

[lifeissweet]

I have had a conversation with a male friend recently. It went a bit like this:

Me: 'Men don't realise that they can scare, worry and intimidate women just by their presence sometimes.'

Him: 'think I do. I do things like cross the street if I'm walking behind a woman at night.

'Well yes. That's good, but I think even in less obviously dangerous situations. I don't think men know how their 'help' can come across.'

I gave the example of how I went to the petrol station to pump up my tyres. I do this often. I in no way look like I don't know what I'm doing. Yet a man decided to come over to offer his assistance.

'Well that's good, isn't it?'

'Not really, no. I found it massively patronising, when I think it highly unlikely he would have offered to help a bloke in the same situation - even if he didn't seem to know what he was doing. Then I felt I had to placate and offer gratitude so that I didn't piss him off and risk him turning aggressive.
These incidents happen all the time in various situations. Women accepting 'help' from men that they don't want or need for fear of repercussions if they refuse.'

'Well I would offer help, but I wouldn't get aggressive if you said no. Why would you assume that?'

'Experience - but also, by offering help to strangers, how do they know you are 'one of the good guys' and not one of the 'fuck off, ugly bitch, I was only being nice' arseholes? They can't, so don't put women in that situation and leave them alone unless they ask for your help.'

'Right. Ok. Don't help? That doesn't sound right. What about if I saw a woman who had broken down on the side of the road. Should I stop and help?'

'Would you do it for a man?'

'Depends on the situation, but probably not because he's not as vulnerable. There is a reason why the AA come to single females faster. They are more vulnerable.'

'But that's the point. I would find that quite uncomfortable exactly because I'm more vulnerable. I have roadside assistance, I would be in that position again of having a strange (quite large) man giving me attention I haven't asked for that would make me feel doubly vulnerable. Even more so at night or when there is no one else around.'

'But I'm not like that and if they wanted to be left alone, I'd just go.'

'But how would a woman know that?'

'I would still rather stop and help than leave her vulnerable, though.'

Ok...

Am I being over-sensitive and do other women feel like me, or is he seeing himself as 'the good guy' potentially causing women more discomfort?

Something about the 'nice guy' thing slightly gives me the creeps and I can't articulate quite why.

[pastypirate]

IMO it's part of a male behaviour around forced interaction. The offering in needed help. I love things like automatic doors because there's no danger of a forced interaction.

[HipPriest]

My elderly mum says that men help her all the time with bags, getting on the train etc. I doubt this is a rarity

[CheeseMmmm]

Oh sorry I thought this was another thread about a specific incident!

The point stands though.

Creepy men know what they're doing. They either don't care that the woman/girl is uncomfortable or giving obvious cues she wants him to go away. Or they enjoy the discomfort.

Of course not all men who offer help are creepy. Not by a long chalk! I've had some lovely men (and women) give me a hand when I needed it/ or seen them help others.

I've also had men who were anything from persistent to aggressive to scary to perves.

And that's the point isn't it. There are easy ways to offer help without making anyone uncomfy. Also it depends on situation.

Eg on busy high street Vs dark road with little traffic. Feeling more wary in the second situation is understandable (I'd have thought!).

[CheeseMmmm]

Again a handy explanation but nope.

I understand the urge to find handy explanations and excuses when it comes to men and boys committing sex offences and the fact it must be a pretty large minority given that almost all women have had multiple experiences starting when school age.

[coronaway]

Am I right in saying more men than women are on the spectrum? I sometimes wonder if their seemingly compete lack of social cues can be contributed to that. It should be straightforward to not be creepy yet many men seem to struggle.

[CheeseMmmm]

And it's also normal for anyone (including women) to react differently in different situations depending on where, who, what etc etc.

Again it's apparently all or nothing with that.

[Thelnebriati]

I don't understand the all or nothing mentality. Its possible to ask someone if they need you to help without getting in their face.
Its also possible to accept a 'no thanks' without getting totally butthurt and vowing never to put yourself in that position again.

[deydododatdodontdeydo]

If I were on the man’s side of OP’s conversation, what I would take away from it is : ‘Don’t offer to help women you don’t know well. You will always be in the wrong, whatever you say and whatever you do and however benign your motives. You can’t win, so it’s just not worth the grief.’

And that would be a sad state of affairs. Like those viral videos where someone is being attacked and all the bystanders ignore it (or worse, film it) because it's not worth getting involved. That's the way things are going, though, I'm afraid.

Also, how does a man know that a woman who needs help is goint to be grateful, or terrified? Better not to bother, and leave her by the side of the road in the dark, potentially vulnerable, eh?

It's not about being a good guy. It's about sexual attraction. Otherwise men would be rushing to help the poor and/or elderly all the time. But it's always young women who they see as the vulnerable ones.

And how do you know they aren't? Of course they are!
DH changed a tyre for an elderly man a while back, who was stranded and didn't have a clue what to do.
It's about being a decent human being.

[CheeseMmmm]

Loads of elderly people feel vulnerable and avoid going out after dark.

Re the dark alleys comments about women being silly. Same applies i assume?

Another question for WhiteVan. Just wondering how much experience you've had of male strangers approaching you and turning out to be anything less than just friendly helpful normal etc?

I have seen on here that how much harassment you get seems to vary massively by where you live/ are.

Any dodgy men when you were are school/ or that friends had happen?

[coronaway]

@Doona

It's not about being a good guy. It's about sexual attraction. Otherwise men would be rushing to help the poor and/or elderly all the time. But it's always young women who they see as the vulnerable ones.

In my experience the elderly are the most likely to get help from strangers (as they should in my opinion).

[CheeseMmmm]

Just this one

WhiteVanWoman91

Oh the 'what about the menz' eh??

So I shouldn't care about people who aren't the same as myself? Er, ok.

How does some women and girls being wary of male strangers who approach them, in some situations, do men any harm though?

And this one

[Doona]

It's not about being a good guy. It's about sexual attraction. Otherwise men would be rushing to help the poor and/or elderly all the time. But it's always young women who they see as the vulnerable ones.

[WhiteVanWoman91]

What questions?

[CheeseMmmm]

Interested to hear the answers to the questions.

[WhiteVanWoman91]

I don't really understand why the assumption that posters would be familiar with it?

It was the second most watched thing on Netflix last time I checked.

And so is the man.. ?

How is this even relevant? It was just an example of a grief vampire. Is there nothing that feminists won’t try and turn into a battle of the sexes!

[WhiteVanWoman91]

Marla is not a real person by the way.

Well no shit. It’s a movie based on a fictional book. 😂

[CheeseMmmm]

'Or the woman in Fight Club who goes to all the support meetings but hasn't actually got cancer/been bereaved etc.'

And so is the man.. ?

Marla is not a real person by the way.

[CheeseMmmm]

@WhiteVanWoman91

Oh the 'what about the menz' eh??

So I shouldn't care about people who aren't the same as myself? Er, ok.

How does some women and girls being wary of male strangers who approach them, in some situations, do men any harm though?

[CheeseMmmm]

I assume it's a TV series, but I've never heard of it.

I don't really understand why the assumption that posters would be familiar with it? I mean I have no idea who the people you mention are. Is it very famous?

[WhiteVanWoman91]

What is You?

When I said ‘the latest series of You’ was this not a giveaway?

Are you referring to Sarah everard? Or someone else?

Why would you assume that? Or that I meant anybody in particular (I didn’t).

[CheeseMmmm]

What is You?

Are you referring to Sarah everard? Or someone else?

[WhiteVanWoman91]

Lol. Couldn't resist. A grief vampire is one of those people that make a tragic event all about them and their own feelings. An example off top of my head would be from latest series of You when....SPOILER ALERT....Natalie disappears and Sherry (the really insincere mom-fluencer one who usually slags her off) starts proclaiming "she was my dearest friend" and spearheading the manhunt for her. Or the woman in Fight Club who goes to all the support meetings but hasn't actually got cancer/been bereaved etc.

You see it when somebody passes away and a load of people who weren't particularly close to them use it as an opportunity for huge amounts of self indulgent grief.

[WhiteVanWoman91]

I'd imagine a brief vampire is one that gets in and out quickly before you wake up rubbing your neck.

[CheeseMmmm]

Do most adults know what a grief vampire is?

I would put money on my parents, DH parents. My friends.. Not knowing what the fuck that is.

What is s brief. vampire,,? I think you need to say.

[CheeseMmmm]

Sorry. R u ok Hun.

Phone sorry.

No one says that in real life do they?