Self styled 'good men'

[lifeissweet]

I have had a conversation with a male friend recently. It went a bit like this:

Me: 'Men don't realise that they can scare, worry and intimidate women just by their presence sometimes.'

Him: 'think I do. I do things like cross the street if I'm walking behind a woman at night.

'Well yes. That's good, but I think even in less obviously dangerous situations. I don't think men know how their 'help' can come across.'

I gave the example of how I went to the petrol station to pump up my tyres. I do this often. I in no way look like I don't know what I'm doing. Yet a man decided to come over to offer his assistance.

'Well that's good, isn't it?'

'Not really, no. I found it massively patronising, when I think it highly unlikely he would have offered to help a bloke in the same situation - even if he didn't seem to know what he was doing. Then I felt I had to placate and offer gratitude so that I didn't piss him off and risk him turning aggressive.
These incidents happen all the time in various situations. Women accepting 'help' from men that they don't want or need for fear of repercussions if they refuse.'

'Well I would offer help, but I wouldn't get aggressive if you said no. Why would you assume that?'

'Experience - but also, by offering help to strangers, how do they know you are 'one of the good guys' and not one of the 'fuck off, ugly bitch, I was only being nice' arseholes? They can't, so don't put women in that situation and leave them alone unless they ask for your help.'

'Right. Ok. Don't help? That doesn't sound right. What about if I saw a woman who had broken down on the side of the road. Should I stop and help?'

'Would you do it for a man?'

'Depends on the situation, but probably not because he's not as vulnerable. There is a reason why the AA come to single females faster. They are more vulnerable.'

'But that's the point. I would find that quite uncomfortable exactly because I'm more vulnerable. I have roadside assistance, I would be in that position again of having a strange (quite large) man giving me attention I haven't asked for that would make me feel doubly vulnerable. Even more so at night or when there is no one else around.'

'But I'm not like that and if they wanted to be left alone, I'd just go.'

'But how would a woman know that?'

'I would still rather stop and help than leave her vulnerable, though.'

Ok...

Am I being over-sensitive and do other women feel like me, or is he seeing himself as 'the good guy' potentially causing women more discomfort?

Something about the 'nice guy' thing slightly gives me the creeps and I can't articulate quite why.

If I were on the man’s side of OP’s conversation, what I would take away from it is : ‘Don’t offer to help women you don’t know well. You will always be in the wrong, whatever you say and whatever you do and however benign your motives. You can’t win, so it’s just not worth the grief.’

@Thelnebriati

Its not an obsession with murders and dark alleys; its women trying to work out how to go about their everyday business without being harassed.

'Scared' women surrounded by 7 men in park who forced them to hand over social media details, and I'd bet you a tenner they all think of themselves as 'good men'.

''The incident wasn’t taken up by the police as no actual crime had taken place, despite the intimidating behaviour of the men.''
www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/women-surrounded-seven-men-who-22038080

But yeah, nothing to see here. Women do it too I expect.

This is not the kind of thing the OP seemed to be talking about, though.

Most people would be scared if seven strangers of any kind surrounded them in an aggressive way, forcing them to do something. Anyone should know that is a scary thing to do to someone.

It's great if men are aware if they are doing something that might seem creepy or potentially dangerous. Approaching a lone woman in an underground parking garage, say. But I don't want men I happen to meet out and about to assume that I'll be scared to chat with them, or to avoid offering a hand when they think I might need it, or anything else.

In discussions like this there always seem to be an OP who assumes most or all women are afraid of men in most circumstances. When you see comments, usually it's clear that's not the case. Lots of women are not particularly scared of men if they are behaving normally in normal places. And it's not just a young woman thing either.

@Libertaire

If I were on the man’s side of OP’s conversation, what I would take away from it is : ‘Don’t offer to help women you don’t know well. You will always be in the wrong, whatever you say and whatever you do and however benign your motives. You can’t win, so it’s just not worth the grief.’

Yeah, pretty much. They can't win so better stay away.

People in our society are already less and less likely to offer help than they were 50 years ago, even 30 years ago.. They assume people will call someone, that they don't want people to step in, that they will be over-stepping.

Most women aren't as terrified of men as feminists are

Bollocks. Feminists are afraid of men? Er, no.

In discussions like this there always seem to be an OP who assumes most or all women are afraid of men in most circumstances. When you see comments, usually it's clear that's not the case. Lots of women are not particularly scared of men if they are behaving normally in normal places. And it's not just a young woman thing either.

Exactly.

I work around builders and fairly rough and ready men every day. I think it's a bit like how some people aren't scared of dogs because they've owned/grown up with them.

I feel like lots of women are scared of their own shadow nowadays. You have to ask yourself that if men are 80% of homicide victims and 3x more likely to be attacked by a stranger....how do they manage to walk around on a daily basis?

It quite clear to me that bad things happen to a small minority of people and it's not worth curtailing your life out of fear. It's like worrying every day about catching a terminal illness.

I work around builders and fairly rough and ready men every day. I think it's a bit like how some people aren't scared of dogs because they've owned/grown up with them.

It's not these men I'm worried about. When I've been threatened, followed, harassed and the like, it's been more often than not by suited and booted, entitled men. In fact working in homeless shelters and with ex-offenders, it's not them either 90% of the time. And in fact the very very few times a bloke has bothered to intervene, it's been the men you're talking about. Give me old-fashioned sexism over misogyny any day.

It's interesting that you think it's these men women are worried about. It's almost like you've made a class issue out of a sex issue.

Drunk men in suits are a fucking nightmare.

And I'd argue with your statistics. Because I've been sexually assaulted more than once in public. But I've never reported it. I think many women don't even think about being groped in a nightclub as being 'attacked by a stranger'. But of course it is.

And whenever I've seen it in person it's always a middle class educated woman moaning about safety, never a wc class woman actually from a rough area. In fact, if you do go to a rough area in say Brum or London you'll usually see loads more young women/girls hanging around outside than in a posh suburb.

I pissed off a former colleague once who liked to play the victim. I asked her whether it was the walk from the work carpark or from her drive to the front door which scared her the most. 😂

And in fact the very very few times a bloke has bothered to intervene, it's been the men you're talking about. Give me old-fashioned sexism over misogyny any day.

I actually agree with this. I think it's because wc men are less scared of physical confrontation. A big generalisation perhaps but I certainly know more wc men that box and who can handle themselves.

Perhaps this fear is just a mc thing, like an extension of the whole daily mail reader thinking the country is rapidly becoming a dangerous hellhole.

And whenever I've seen it in person it's always a middle class educated woman moaning about safety

I've worked a lot with survivors and seen genuine terror on someone's face when her old pimp walked into McDonald's. She really struggled with men in general. It's not just m/c women.

I've worked a lot with survivors and seen genuine terror on someone's face when her old pimp walked into McDonald's. She really struggled with men in general. It's not just m/c women.

I can well imagine, but I don't think the sort of people complaining on mumsnet are the same demographic. If anything, some of them leech off the misfortune of the former with all the royal "we" stuff. It does irk me when people talk about stuff that 'happens to us women' when they're clearly not inn the demographic it happens to.

Sorry bit of a rant burnt feel these people aren't a million miles away from the grief vampire type.

What is a grief before m vampire?

Sorry to ask but you know. I'm not 12.

PP seems to have peculiar ideas.

Like men in certain areas are more rapey.

That women/ girls with.. (education? Posh voice? Not sure) are immune from sexual assault.

That's s terrible way to see men tbh. Most men aren't rapists.

And ', class' has nothing to do with s man being a sexual predotor.

FFS.. How judgemental on men.

I'm actually really grateful for good guys that help out. The world needs more of them, not less.

@CheeseMmmm

What is a grief before m vampire?

Sorry to ask but you know. I'm not 12.

Why would being 12 make a difference? It's probably a concept more understood by adults.

@Avarua

I'm actually really grateful for good guys that help out. The world needs more of them, not less.

The issue with too many good guys is that it leaves a deficit of men to moan about!

Irony is that I've literally never had a woman stop to offer help any time I've had a flat tyre etc. Not even a quick "You ok, hun? Need to use a phone or anything?"

You look Hun?

Who says that?

Ok for sure never said that. Have put my face in the way of a punch though.. Twice.

Does that count,,,,?

Sorry. R u ok Hun.

Phone sorry.

No one says that in real life do they?

Do most adults know what a grief vampire is?

I would put money on my parents, DH parents. My friends.. Not knowing what the fuck that is.

What is s brief. vampire,,? I think you need to say.

I'd imagine a brief vampire is one that gets in and out quickly before you wake up rubbing your neck.

Lol. Couldn't resist. A grief vampire is one of those people that make a tragic event all about them and their own feelings. An example off top of my head would be from latest series of You when....SPOILER ALERT....Natalie disappears and Sherry (the really insincere mom-fluencer one who usually slags her off) starts proclaiming "she was my dearest friend" and spearheading the manhunt for her. Or the woman in Fight Club who goes to all the support meetings but hasn't actually got cancer/been bereaved etc.

You see it when somebody passes away and a load of people who weren't particularly close to them use it as an opportunity for huge amounts of self indulgent grief.

What is You?

Are you referring to Sarah everard? Or someone else?

What is You?

When I said ‘the latest series of You’ was this not a giveaway?

Are you referring to Sarah everard? Or someone else?

Why would you assume that? Or that I meant anybody in particular (I didn’t).

I assume it's a TV series, but I've never heard of it.

I don't really understand why the assumption that posters would be familiar with it? I mean I have no idea who the people you mention are. Is it very famous?