The constant maintenance of womanhood

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Another thread about the pill got me thinking. Taking a pill every single day is tedious as well as a health issue.

But there are so many things women are supposed to do to 'maintain'.

Health is the pill as the obvious one. I know biology is a bastard so smears too. And breast exams.

Body. Waxing or trimming, hair being coloured and styled, face free of random hair.

Life. Wife work and house work and presents and school and appointments. Occasional DIY isn't like that.

I don't do 70% of the above BTW but I know women who do. And I know men would argue shaving but beards are now everywhere. A woman's work is never done I suppose.

And I think the body stuff is actually regressing for women. With more expectations of perfection requiring enormous cost and commitment. And it's worse for certain women. The expectations on black women and older women, plus teens is immense!

I also find the more modern shift towards looking naturally, effortlessly beautiful quite disconcerting, it's not as innocent as it sounds.

There is a lot of privilege involved. Professionally groomed eyebrows, waxes, expensive salon natural looking colour, mega expensive multi step skincare for skin good enough to go with minimal makeup, etc etc. Filters and face tunes and photo shop in pictures to make it look like you "naturally" look a certain (completely unrealistic) way.

It's very difficult.

I also find the more modern shift towards looking naturally, effortlessly beautiful quite disconcerting, it's not as innocent as it sounds.

Some bloke in a pub once told me I was effortlessly beautiful and he went on about women and make up. I went and washed my face in the pub toilet. Came back and showed him what 'effortless beauty' actually entailed. What a wanker he was.

On the other hand, I enjoy it. I enjoy the process and the result. Don't know how to get around that really.

If you want to, I would suggest a gradual approach. I'm nearly 50 my appearance has changed over the years and I have changed my grooming routines, according to my evolving needs. Some changes take some getting used to but I took pictures to familiarise myself with the way they actually looked, weighed up what was worth doing and made my decisions accordingly. I actually wear much less makeup now than I did in my 20s, go to the hairdressers less (do my own hair now) but do use more skin care and exercise much more.

@Bobsyer

If you can’t be barefaced or hairy-legged in public without being self-conscious, then your decision to do that is not freely made.

“I only wore make up on my wedding because I felt I should make the effort” what effort? Did your husband?

“I’m lucky I have good skin and fair body hair so I don’t bother” so you’re already acceptable in terms of patriarchy then? I have rosacea and I’m part Greek so will never be ‘acceptable’. I’ve been asked before if I was I’ll purely because I wasn’t wearing make up. I’m old enough to be almost invisible but I used to be young and slim - and attractive when I covered my ‘flaws’.

“I had laser a few years ago” - erm, why, if you’re so ‘not bothered’? Could it be that at one point you were bothered and now you’re not? Let’s not pretend you got laser in a vacuum.

There’s nothing that annoys me more than women who just blithely say “just don’t do it then, it’s not hard” like it’s not difficult to unwind the conditioning of a life time. Especially when those women sometimes do these arbitrary grooming rituals but only when they ‘need’ to. Like a lot of things, just because you don’t personally feel it’s a big deal doesn’t mean it’s not. Just watch the ads between tv shows and see how many are targeting women’s looks.

Great post.

[quote TheFairPrincess]@Babdoc it is funny how often on the feminist boards I find myself referred to by other women as emotional, irrational, naive, etc..

You don't actually get to dictate how your comments, opinions and beliefs are viewed by others. I feel that your comment regarding women who wear makeup being view as professional tarts extremely hate filled and misogynistic. You obviously do not hold that opinion and it is your right to do so, but as said, you do not get to decide on other peoples' behalf that it is not offensive.[/quote]
I think this is an interesting point.

I grew up around older female family members who said exactly these things snd now that I'm grown up, after much self-reflection, I realise that I absorbed some of those attitudes ... which actually came from a place of internalised misogny. Butcthe internalised misogny itself comes from the way that the patriarchy makes women compete for men's attention and brands certain women whores or tarts when they then do so. It's very complicated.

Catching up and couple of posts mentioned ye olden days...

'I agree the burden on women is getting worse. I think if you look at photos of ordinary people from the 70s, 80s you will see that- women may have worn make up but there just wasn't a lot of the stuff available then that there is now (spray tans, fake nails/lashes- Ok they existed but rarely used)'

', I was at high school and uni in the 70s. Any woman plastered in make up, fake nails, fake tan etc would have been regarded as a “cheap tart”, and probably a professional one!'

I don't agree. (Apart from the tart bit. Yes that was used a lot. Not to do with that stuff though. The line between 'attractive according to current standards' and slapper has always been a line women and girls walk. When I was growing up. Schoolgirls would get called little tarts due to rolled up skirts. Always said in a really malicious way. Women who were too... Went to the pub. Had male friends. Were seen as mutton dressed as lamb. Yes tart meant prostitute. It didn't take much for it to be used about women/ girls at all).

In the 70s there was punk/ goth/ New wave etc.

Hair and make up were time consuming. Hair was coloured a lot. Getting a look like Siouxie Sioux, a decent Mohican. V involved. Trying to look like Debbie Harry? Good luck!

And I know men would argue shaving but envy beards are now everywhere.

Tbf, maintaining a beard takes much more effort than being clean shaven if you look after it. My partner uses oil every day and when it got longer also beard wax as he has a really curly beard which needs tamed - unlike oil the wax needs washed out every night with special beard shampoo. He has it trimmed every two weeks.

I think maintaining 'the ideal physique' is also harder for men as the ideal is to be muscular rather than just slim, which takes loads of progressive cycles of cutting and bulking (hence why so many men cheat with steroids).

Not disagreeing that women have to spend a lot, but a high profile man is expected also earn lots of money and have an expensive car etc, as opposed to just looking good.

My mum got her hair bleached in early 80s a fair bit. Not uncommon. Cap thing and they pulled hair through little holes Apparently it was excruciating

Back further.

Corsets.
After them underwear that was still unforgiving.
Plenty of unattainable beauty for women to aim for. Golden era Hollywood etc.
80s / 90s the supermodel thing started.
Being slender always an aim. Yes we were thinner then anyway. But still. At school in 80s anorexia/ bulimia was seen as standard.

Over the years the fashion has changed massively about our bodies, often in ways that are unchangeable because build.

Flappers - flat chest
Years with films - Monroe, grable, dors etc - hourglass. Tiny waist etc
50s tailored? Definite shape was the thing again tiny waist etc
70s/ 80s it went fitness mad. Fonda (Barbarella! Fitness vids). Olivia Newton John (that black number at the end of grease! She was sewn into it. And physical etc).
Lean and lightly muscled.
80s cropped everything and Madonna.
Massive boobs came in 90s maybe? Breast implants becoming a thing.
Now bum implants. And so much more..

The things done now are more numerous and the look perfect meaning more done by professionals = money.

For sure.

That in general it was more natural less pressure etc. Really don't agree.

'Not disagreeing that women have to spend a lot, but a high profile man is expected also earn lots of money and have an expensive car etc, as opposed to just looking good.'

What do you mean by 'high profile'?

What do you mean by 'high profile'?

Well, maybe 'eligible' would be a better word.

Women prioritise earnings/status of a partner much more than men. Loads of studies have shown this. There was a thread in AIBU only last week where loads of women said they'd marry for money.

The 'cheap tart' conversation is interesting. Absolutely internalised misogyny. It's very 'wear make up NOT LIKE THAT' 'look attractive NOT LIKE THAT' 'don't be frigid NOT LIKE THAT'.

As a 15 yo I was once called a frigid whore by an 18 yo man who tried to sexually assault me. That's so telling. Too sexual but not enough. I've googled him. Rapey bastard is very successful of course.

And I know individually we can reject it. But pretending that society has no effect on us is ridiculous. I don't wear lederhosen and a tricorn hat because that's not what society tells me I should wear. We all live within society.

There's one now! It's bizarre. Those threads are so removed from real life. Who people actually couple up with etc. And always forget women can have decent jobs now. Even... Ones that pay v well!

Sorry that post was for Kay.

You mean this idea of. Men who are v well paid, tall decent build. Display wealth with fancy clothes expensive cars etc?

That sort of idea?

@NiceGerbil

Sorry that post was for Kay.

You mean this idea of. Men who are v well paid, tall decent build. Display wealth with fancy clothes expensive cars etc?

That sort of idea?

Yes, sort of. But there are different subtypes of course.

But an attractive female can often bag a rich bloke, whilst a hunk of a male personal trainer won't usually be able to do the same based only on his looks.

But an attractive female can often bag a rich bloke, whilst a hunk of a male personal trainer won't usually be able to do the same based only on his looks.

Socially acceptable prostitution is something to aim for?

Terry when tart was often used it was by women a lot as well.

Another area where there are ideas about what women/ girls should behave/ look like. Which come essentially from stereotypes of what men like.

But it's pushed mainly by women. loads of women and girls. Who do the actual legwork. Very strange dynamic.

I think it's pretty much always been women/ girls who have said things. Often thinking they were actually being helpful. But often just like warnings that doing x was stepping out of line.

Thinking.

One bloke said would I dread my hair to look like the woman from daisy chainsaw.
One said to that dress is too short and tbf he was right.
My dad a fair bit actually.

I mean on here. The huge judgement etc that women express is always a shock to me.

And that goes across loads of issues.
Clothes, hair, job, lifestyle, on to bf/FF, childbirth. How much partners should do. Sex. Porn. Woh/ SAH. Victim blaming. Incidents being deemed over reaction. And etc and so on ..

There has always been this dynamic where loads of women do the actual enforcing etc. Up to things which are really awful. And always have done.

'But an attractive female can often bag a rich bloke, whilst a hunk of a male personal trainer won't usually be able to do the same based only on his looks.'

?????

I don't know anyone irl whether gorgeous or not who has 'bagged a rich bloke'!

Do these gorgeous women and girls meet them in their hometowns? Do they all go hunting? Where?

How can you even tell if a man is rich when you first meet him?

And. Personal trainers can make loads of money. Just FYI.

Are they even looking for one?

You talk like for girls and women-

Obvious life aim is to 'bag a rich bloke'.
Looks are therefore v important. Not personality, having a laugh, similar interests or outlooks etc. Nope. Men just want a fit bird and women just want a rich man ...!

The wealthy men i know have partners and home/ career arrangements of various types.

And their partners/ wives are of a similar level of looks as them. same as any other couple.

Socially acceptable prostitution is something to aim for?

Not for me, but plenty in the current thread who would marry for money. A fair few threads on here before asking 'how to bag a rich man?'

We may not agree with these life choices but we can't pretend these women don't exist.

Well sure they do but in the scheme of things there aren't many ecclestones Murdochs etc about!

You said most attractive etc women could bag a rich man.

How? Where from? Do they even have any desire to do that? Do all rich men automatically want a gorgeous woman and that's all?

Many blokes are terrified of women who are, I think you mean. Tall beautiful slim glamorous.

Plenty of men aren't actually that confident! And are happy with people they meet who are... More like them!

Also as women have got into better jobs etc, they can get this.

I just thinking of material girl!

'Boys may come and boys may go
And that's all right you see
Experience has made me rich
And now they're after me'

Lololol

I often wonder how so many people ignore everything and everyone they know from RL. And regurgitate stereotypes...

And their partners/ wives are of a similar level of looks as them. same as any other couple.

And you think this applies to footballers etc? I was going to add to my post that people on here always say "all the rich men I know want a women from the same background". But this only really applies to professionals and the well educated IME.

There are particular clubs where hopeful women go to meet rich men and the elite. It's not surprising that the average mumsnetter doesn't know anybody who attends these type of places.

I'm not aware of any male equivalent to a WAG.

Even my mum, who is a proper 70s feminist, worries about her thinning hair. My dad doesn't.

Then your dad is pretty special.
Going bald, or the fear of it, is huge for men. I read their comments all the time on the internet. Every man (except your dad) with thinning hair worries about it, about what people will think of them, about their attractiveness.
Not surprising really, as even on this very forum I see "fat old bloke" used to describe men pretty often.

Footballers? Plenty are with partners they met before Megabucks.

And I'm not that up on celebrity gossip etc. But I've got a feeling many settle down with women who are famous and rich themselves.

Lol at next bit. Come on which clubs you said it lets hear it.

Love the idea that no way would anyone on here know places young women go to pick up wealthy men!