The constant maintenance of womanhood

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Another thread about the pill got me thinking. Taking a pill every single day is tedious as well as a health issue.

But there are so many things women are supposed to do to 'maintain'.

Health is the pill as the obvious one. I know biology is a bastard so smears too. And breast exams.

Body. Waxing or trimming, hair being coloured and styled, face free of random hair.

Life. Wife work and house work and presents and school and appointments. Occasional DIY isn't like that.

I don't do 70% of the above BTW but I know women who do. And I know men would argue shaving but beards are now everywhere. A woman's work is never done I suppose.

And I think the body stuff is actually regressing for women. With more expectations of perfection requiring enormous cost and commitment. And it's worse for certain women. The expectations on black women and older women, plus teens is immense!

it really is about capitalism, see also selling x2 toys in pink vs blue
however, capitalism alone does not explain it, there has to be an underlying patriarchy which makes us feel the need to be approved of/get a husband etc etc

@Mybalconyiscracking But that's the thing isn't it. The counter argument is always how "it's optional". But how optional is it really when there are constant targeted and deliberate campaigns to actively make women feel inadequate.

It's not a binary question of wear makeup or don't. Even though it should be.

These threads always make me feel like I'm from another planet.
I do almost nothing of these things and don't feel any pressure.

The pressure comes from women - other women. When I was a "school gate mum" there was tons of it - looking down nose and talking about other women who weren't as "well groomed".
Since I no longer see those women I don't get any of it, it's a relief.

If you can’t be barefaced or hairy-legged in public without being self-conscious, then your decision to do that is not freely made.

“I only wore make up on my wedding because I felt I should make the effort” what effort? Did your husband?

“I’m lucky I have good skin and fair body hair so I don’t bother” so you’re already acceptable in terms of patriarchy then? I have rosacea and I’m part Greek so will never be ‘acceptable’. I’ve been asked before if I was I’ll purely because I wasn’t wearing make up. I’m old enough to be almost invisible but I used to be young and slim - and attractive when I covered my ‘flaws’.

“I had laser a few years ago” - erm, why, if you’re so ‘not bothered’? Could it be that at one point you were bothered and now you’re not? Let’s not pretend you got laser in a vacuum.

There’s nothing that annoys me more than women who just blithely say “just don’t do it then, it’s not hard” like it’s not difficult to unwind the conditioning of a life time. Especially when those women sometimes do these arbitrary grooming rituals but only when they ‘need’ to. Like a lot of things, just because you don’t personally feel it’s a big deal doesn’t mean it’s not. Just watch the ads between tv shows and see how many are targeting women’s looks.

It's good you don't feel pressure, I'm sure there are plenty of women who don't. But we do societally place a lot of value on female appearance. Even world leading politicians have articles written about what they are wearing, what makeup they have on. Do you see the same for men in the same position? It all feeds into the same concept.

I feel a much more general need to look good and made up whenever I'm in any public setting. Even though I am perfectly clean I feel vulnerable and scruffy looking/unprofessional if my hair and makeup is not done. I hardly think I'm the only woman to feel like this, and not just feel it, see the difference in attitude and perception when you are made up vs when you aren't.

@Bobsyer

If you can’t be barefaced or hairy-legged in public without being self-conscious, then your decision to do that is not freely made.

“I only wore make up on my wedding because I felt I should make the effort” what effort? Did your husband?

“I’m lucky I have good skin and fair body hair so I don’t bother” so you’re already acceptable in terms of patriarchy then? I have rosacea and I’m part Greek so will never be ‘acceptable’. I’ve been asked before if I was I’ll purely because I wasn’t wearing make up. I’m old enough to be almost invisible but I used to be young and slim - and attractive when I covered my ‘flaws’.

“I had laser a few years ago” - erm, why, if you’re so ‘not bothered’? Could it be that at one point you were bothered and now you’re not? Let’s not pretend you got laser in a vacuum.

There’s nothing that annoys me more than women who just blithely say “just don’t do it then, it’s not hard” like it’s not difficult to unwind the conditioning of a life time. Especially when those women sometimes do these arbitrary grooming rituals but only when they ‘need’ to. Like a lot of things, just because you don’t personally feel it’s a big deal doesn’t mean it’s not. Just watch the ads between tv shows and see how many are targeting women’s looks.

I'm absolutely not saying that it's easy, it isn't.

But nothing is going to change unless people start ignoring the messages.

It is very, very hard to do that, yes. More for some than for others.

I've never been high maintenance but I absolutely did think about these things more in my youth.

It helped than my mum was always bare faced and hairy legged and beautiful

“I only wore make up on my wedding because I felt I should make the effort” what effort? Did your husband?

Find me a husband that doesn't make an effort on his wedding day!
Men usually have a hair cut, I know plenty who go to male grooming parlours. They certainly dress up.

It helped than my mum was always bare faced and hairy legged and beautiful

Awh that is so lovely

@Bobsyer

If you can’t be barefaced or hairy-legged in public without being self-conscious, then your decision to do that is not freely made.

“I only wore make up on my wedding because I felt I should make the effort” what effort? Did your husband?

“I’m lucky I have good skin and fair body hair so I don’t bother” so you’re already acceptable in terms of patriarchy then? I have rosacea and I’m part Greek so will never be ‘acceptable’. I’ve been asked before if I was I’ll purely because I wasn’t wearing make up. I’m old enough to be almost invisible but I used to be young and slim - and attractive when I covered my ‘flaws’.

“I had laser a few years ago” - erm, why, if you’re so ‘not bothered’? Could it be that at one point you were bothered and now you’re not? Let’s not pretend you got laser in a vacuum.

There’s nothing that annoys me more than women who just blithely say “just don’t do it then, it’s not hard” like it’s not difficult to unwind the conditioning of a life time. Especially when those women sometimes do these arbitrary grooming rituals but only when they ‘need’ to. Like a lot of things, just because you don’t personally feel it’s a big deal doesn’t mean it’s not. Just watch the ads between tv shows and see how many are targeting women’s looks.

Absolutely! I don't shave my legs often - because I have fair hair. Do I let my tache grow in? Absolutely not!

There are very few women who are hairy for example who leave everything well alone.

@TreXX plenty on this thread have said it’s easy though.

@deydododatdodontdeydo oh yes, all those men having a full face of make up, hair done up including extensions, false eyelashes . Come on now, don’t be disingenuous. Sure men want to look nice on their wedding day but that rarely includes make up or dieting manically.

I find it interesting that you can recognise the pressure but presumably feel yourself loftily above it now you’re not in the position anymore. I mean, I’m married so not going out on the pull so I’m much lower maintenance, I work from home so don’t need to keep myself ‘groomed’ but that just means the pressure isn’t on me anymore.

Bobsyer
I only wore make up on my wedding because I felt I should make the effort” what effort? Did your husband?

It was me who wrote that. Yes he did make an effort to look as smart as possible. But I agree there was a definite expectation on me as a bride to look as lovely as possible on my wedding day.
Everybody always asks 'what did the bride wear' etc. and I did go along with it.
I wanted to look good as well as it was a special occasion.

This is where it gets contradictory as there are societal expectations, but also people want to look good.
I think there's a balance.

I don't think anyone should blame individual women when the pressure is societal. Yes, some look like the societal ideal without having to do much at all. Also some of the products we are sold do make a difference, health wise. Fitness products to help exercise. Skin products to prevent skin damage such as suncream and creams to help with sensitive, dry/cracking skin or acne etc.

It can be exhausting and sometimes counterproductive to make a stand against every single cultural norm. When I was going through cancer treatment, for example I didn't want to look really ill to top it off. I wore a wig and make up, I didn't want to be noticed everywhere just for having cancer if you understand what I mean.

Sometimes I do just want to blend in. 🤷‍♀️

@Bobsyer
plenty on this thread have said it’s easy though

And? I can only speak for myself...

And to be honest, if you actually object to all the faff it really ISN'T that hard to opt out.

Oh and before we got married my husband had a professional steam and close shave at the barber, tailored suit, fresh haircut etc

I slapped on a bit of eyeshadow, mascara and lip gloss, pulled on my second hand dress and was good to go.

And as for dieting - does going for a massive curry with friends the night before count?

Yes there is undoubtedly more pressure on women to look a certain way but once you've seen it and rejected it it's down to you.

I used to wear make up to work as I thought it was more 'professional'. Realised I was just doing it to myself and stopped. Still working, still respected by my colleagues.

I'm NOT denying there is pressure but it IS possible to resist it. And it doesn't have to be difficult.

Sure men want to look nice on their wedding day but that rarely includes make up or dieting manically.

I didn't diet or do hair extensions - I was still relatively low-key.
However, I have been to a couple of weddings where the bride's dress has been slightly too big as she's dieted a lot just before her wedding.

I find it interesting that you can recognise the pressure but presumably feel yourself loftily above it now you’re not in the position anymore.

It doesn't have much to do with not being in that position anymore.
Everyone, female and male has societal pressures, and nobody is immune, much as we like to think we are.
But - I have never wore a fake eyelash or hair extension in my life, nor fake tan.
When I was younger I would wear a small amount of makeup when going out to nightclubs only, never in the day. But the nightclubs I went to, the men wore makeup too.
People do all this stuff because they want to, or their friends pressure them to.
And while young men might not wear makeup, they certainly groom - shave, hair do, wax, scent., clothes. All kinds of stuff, it's not just women.

Yes a certain pressure, no big deal tho

@TreXX @BloomingTrees @deydododatdodontdeydo

Your personal experiences don’t lessen the patriarchal expectations on women. It’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise. As it happens I also didn’t wear fake eyelashes or tan on my wedding day. Not hugely relevant to society at large.

Bobsyer

That is what I said, that there was definitely a societal expectation for me to look good on my wedding day and I went along with it.

What annoys me the most is the judgement on women's appearances when they're doing their jobs.

[quote Bobsyer]**@TreXX* @BloomingTrees* @deydododatdodontdeydo

Your personal experiences don’t lessen the patriarchal expectations on women. It’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise. As it happens I also didn’t wear fake eyelashes or tan on my wedding day. Not hugely relevant to society at large.[/quote]
I haven't denied there is pressure have I?

All I've said is that once you see it and if you are unhappy with it then it's not that hard to opt out if you really want to.

Studies have shown that people perceive both women wearing NO make up and women wearing obvious make up to look unprofessional. We're expected to be groomed and put in the time, money and effort, without looking like we do.

I have curly hair, I can either put in time to make it curl acceptably or I can put in time to get it straight. I cannot just skip it altogether (in my world a shaved head would be a definite no). And that's as a white woman - black women I know have even more cultural expectations on their hair.

All I've said is that once you see it and if you are unhappy with it then it's not that hard to opt out if you really want to

And other people disagree, for fairly obvious reasons.

@TheFairPrincess

All I've said is that once you see it and if you are unhappy with it then it's not that hard to opt out if you really want to

And other people disagree, for fairly obvious reasons.

So what's hard about it then?

Because it's missing the point. The societal image of women comes from the top down. Women may reject the social pressures of womanhood and femininity, but it is not an us and them mentality. Women who don't want to conform may feel the pressure, but women who do not want to make the choice to not conform are still subject to it.

You're looking at the subject in a backwards, victim blamey way. Individual women who choose to reject female beauty standards to not necessarily change the status quo, and women who go to effort to abide by those standards are not the problem.

The issue is the patriarchal depiction of women and women's role in society as objects of beauty and sex, based in objectification and subjugation. That is not something that disappears for every woman who decides not to shave their armpits.

@TheFairPrincess

Because it's missing the point. The societal image of women comes from the top down. Women may reject the social pressures of womanhood and femininity, but it is not an us and them mentality. Women who don't want to conform may feel the pressure, but women who do not want to make the choice to not conform are still subject to it.

You're looking at the subject in a backwards, victim blamey way. Individual women who choose to reject female beauty standards to not necessarily change the status quo, and women who go to effort to abide by those standards are not the problem.

The issue is the patriarchal depiction of women and women's role in society as objects of beauty and sex, based in objectification and subjugation. That is not something that disappears for every woman who decides not to shave their armpits.

No, no and no

Read my posts again

I acknowledge there is pressure

I acknowledge it can be difficult for some women

I acknowledge I was more blinded to it in my youth

What I reject is that once you have seen the problem and once you feel uncomfortable with the pressure, if you really don't want to primp and preen then you just don't have to.

Exactly what is stopping you from stopping?