The constant maintenance of womanhood

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Another thread about the pill got me thinking. Taking a pill every single day is tedious as well as a health issue.

But there are so many things women are supposed to do to 'maintain'.

Health is the pill as the obvious one. I know biology is a bastard so smears too. And breast exams.

Body. Waxing or trimming, hair being coloured and styled, face free of random hair.

Life. Wife work and house work and presents and school and appointments. Occasional DIY isn't like that.

I don't do 70% of the above BTW but I know women who do. And I know men would argue shaving but beards are now everywhere. A woman's work is never done I suppose.

And I think the body stuff is actually regressing for women. With more expectations of perfection requiring enormous cost and commitment. And it's worse for certain women. The expectations on black women and older women, plus teens is immense!

And of course if you wish to primp and preen then I have no problem with that!

Right, but that's at an individual level.

You can't "acknowledge there is pressure" and also not understand how or why a woman wouldn't feel comfortable giving up their beauty habits. First of all, women are perfectly capable of acknowledging their own dissonance between holding feminist beliefs and pandering to the male gaze. You don't just suddenly thinkg "ooohh, it's misogyny" and never put on a lick of makeup again. It's hugely reductive. If you are saying the latter, you're not truly recognising the former, even if you say you are.

Also, we have to disentangle beauty and femininity from the negativity associated with objectification. Women can and should be able to do what they want to feel and look beautiful for the sake of beauty, without feeling like they are either being pressured in to doing so due to patriarchy etc and also not feeling like they are betraying feminist ideals by doing so. Beauty exists and is part of human nature. So we need to drop the idea that "realising there is pressure" should automatically result in cessation of being into beauty, fashion, makeup whatever.

Someone on this thread posted about how in the 70's women "plastered in makeup" were considered "tarts" or something. That is equally as awful as women who are perfectly fine and happy as they are feeling pressured into altering themselves. Something needs to change, big time, in our attitude to ourselves as well as society's attitude to us.

Out of interest, do Instagram influencers count as the Patriarchy?
Because quite a few women I know are addicted to the make up, hair, eyebrow artistes on there. Most of whom are female.

Obviously it will be mostly females who are affected by female beauty standards

I don't see how that makes them "the Patriarchy"

@TheFairPrincess

Right, but that's at an individual level.

You can't "acknowledge there is pressure" and also not understand how or why a woman wouldn't feel comfortable giving up their beauty habits. First of all, women are perfectly capable of acknowledging their own dissonance between holding feminist beliefs and pandering to the male gaze. You don't just suddenly thinkg "ooohh, it's misogyny" and never put on a lick of makeup again. It's hugely reductive. If you are saying the latter, you're not truly recognising the former, even if you say you are.

Also, we have to disentangle beauty and femininity from the negativity associated with objectification. Women can and should be able to do what they want to feel and look beautiful for the sake of beauty, without feeling like they are either being pressured in to doing so due to patriarchy etc and also not feeling like they are betraying feminist ideals by doing so. Beauty exists and is part of human nature. So we need to drop the idea that "realising there is pressure" should automatically result in cessation of being into beauty, fashion, makeup whatever.

Someone on this thread posted about how in the 70's women "plastered in makeup" were considered "tarts" or something. That is equally as awful as women who are perfectly fine and happy as they are feeling pressured into altering themselves. Something needs to change, big time, in our attitude to ourselves as well as society's attitude to us.

I wasn't talking about the general issue though, I was talking about individual choices.

I don't know how I can simplify it more so that you understand.

If you as an individual feel that you as an individual do not want to conform to certain societal pressures then you as an individual can opt out.

There is nothing stopping you as an individual other than the perceived societal pressures. So if you as an individual have rejected those societal pressures then you as an individual can do what you as an individual please.

The rejection of the pressure is the hard bit, not what comes after that.

No offence but it's just a stupid pointless argument! What's the point in reducing everything down to binary individual choice?

The whole point is how free is choice when placed in the context of the society we live in? There are some women who will never question their "choice" and feel like it's their own volition, there are women who have hateful opinions toward "bimbo" or people who do wear makeup, lashes etc. That's the actual issue here.

To the women in the world who feel none of that and can make that choice in a complete vacuum of uninfluenced personal choice then... great?

It's not that I don't understand your point. What I don't understand is what is the point of saying it.

other than the perceived societal pressures

But these are no small inconsequential things. And again, we should actually be interested in those societal pressures, and where they come from. The fact that they exist is the problem, not whether individual women choose to abide by them, or not.

I don't see how that makes them "the Patriarchy"

Because "the Patriarchy" has been given as the reason for these societal pressures.

It's not that I don't understand your point. What I don't understand is what is the point of saying it.

Gee, thanks.

The point is if you see the issue and don't want to be a slave to it then YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE.

No need to angst over it on a personal level.

Lament the societal pressures and shitty way women are influenced, sure, but don't pretend it's hard to opt out if that's what you want to do.

Yeah my point is that they are not the reason are they, these women. They are consequences/results.

I'm not saying that there are not women of power and influence who do no good for the progression of women. Examples that come to mind are the Kardashians, who have built an empire on extreme investment in appearance.

But by definition they are not "part of the patriarchy", no.

but don't pretend it's hard to opt out if that's what you want to do

Oh my god, do you really think that?

Do you genuinely believe that all women find it easy to stop feeling judged on their appearance, just because they know it is unfair that they are judged on their appearance?

Can you not see past the prism of your own experience?

Sorry tone is hard to convey in text. I am genuinely surprised as that is not my experience at all.

@TheFairPrincess

but don't pretend it's hard to opt out if that's what you want to do

Oh my god, do you really think that?

Do you genuinely believe that all women find it easy to stop feeling judged on their appearance, just because they know it is unfair that they are judged on their appearance?

Can you not see past the prism of your own experience?

Yeah, it's not hard. Once you've made the leap.

Just stop.

See.. easy

I think you are trolling now. That's ridiculous. I've been judged by my appearance my whole life. People make huge assumptions about my personality by my appearance. The way that people treat you when you look a certain way vs when you make no effort can be astounding.

It may have been easy for you, but I'm so confused about why you think it is so inconsequential for everyone. There are literal whole, mega profitable industries devoted to every aspect of female beauty, female beauty is depicted EVERYWHERE. Most women would not find it easy to just stop caring.

@TheFairPrincess

I think you are trolling now. That's ridiculous. I've been judged by my appearance my whole life. People make huge assumptions about my personality by my appearance. The way that people treat you when you look a certain way vs when you make no effort can be astounding.

It may have been easy for you, but I'm so confused about why you think it is so inconsequential for everyone. There are literal whole, mega profitable industries devoted to every aspect of female beauty, female beauty is depicted EVERYWHERE. Most women would not find it easy to just stop caring.

Fair enough, I apologise. I was being arsey because of your perceived tone

Yes, it has been fairly easy for me but I accept your point that it isn't for everyone.

I'm lucky enough to have:
A feminist mother with all that entailed
A husband who doesn't care what I look like
Good skin, hair, teeth, eyebrows and bone structure
To really suit the 'natural look'

So no, I guess I don't know how hard it is for some women. But I don't see anyone as less than because they don't pluck and primp. I honestly think most people look better naturally.

@Usernamenotavailabletryanother

The worst, the very worst of this for me is how all this work has been packaged and sold back to us as ‘pampering’ and ‘relaxation’

Treat yourself- paint your nails a bright colour, spend hours in an uncomfortable chair getting unacceptable grey hair dyed, have other hairs painfully ripped out of your body… err, thanks? How much?! Don’t worry, it’s a treat

Yes The pink tax at its essence

Also the things that are unisex but packaged for women to cost more
Razor blades
Shampoo
Etc etc

Lament the societal pressures and shitty way women are influenced, sure, but don't pretend it's hard to opt out if that's what you want to do.

@TreXX, it can be hard, though. If, for example, you are a teen with acne and are teased / bullied about it. If you are undergoing cancer treatment and every time you look in the mirror you are reminded about how ill you are. If your dry skin is sore and flakes. There are products which help all of these issues. Creams to treat acne, dry skin, make up which stops people looking grey and ill, wigs and hair pieces that can cover up hair loss. The societal pressure comes from people staring / commenting / drawing attention to.

Don't blame the victims who manage these pressures by using products to blend in. Blame the beauty industry, film industry, t.v., fashion industry and magazines etc for creating impossible beauty standards. And women can speak out vocally against these pressures and still conform to the standards without being hypocrites, I think. They are in an ideal position to talk about it as they have experiential knowledge.

@silveryslade

Lament the societal pressures and shitty way women are influenced, sure, but don't pretend it's hard to opt out if that's what you want to do.

@TreXX, it can be hard, though. If, for example, you are a teen with acne and are teased / bullied about it. If you are undergoing cancer treatment and every time you look in the mirror you are reminded about how ill you are. If your dry skin is sore and flakes. There are products which help all of these issues. Creams to treat acne, dry skin, make up which stops people looking grey and ill, wigs and hair pieces that can cover up hair loss. The societal pressure comes from people staring / commenting / drawing attention to.

Don't blame the victims who manage these pressures by using products to blend in. Blame the beauty industry, film industry, t.v., fashion industry and magazines etc for creating impossible beauty standards. And women can speak out vocally against these pressures and still conform to the standards without being hypocrites, I think. They are in an ideal position to talk about it as they have experiential knowledge.

Yes, I've already recanted!!

I admitted that I was coming at this from a position of privilege and I apologise for not seeing it earlier.

@TreXX, no worries. I'd already written my post when I saw your later one. It's what these discussions are good for - getting to think about different perspectives.

TheFairPrincess, who said anything about “hate”? Such a silly over emotional word to use, when one actually means “disagree with”, “disapprove of” or “judge as pandering to men”.
I much preferred being a teenager during seventies feminism, with its refreshing freedom from excessive female grooming, to the horrible norms imposed on today’s teenage girls by the twin horrors of internet porn and social media.

@Babdoc, but why judge? You've just about admitted that feminist standards of grooming were easier in a climate of feminism.

Thing is how to recreate that? By sneering, judging and disapproving of those victims of the current society's growing standards? Or by empowering others and building them up so they are confident enough to opt out of stuff they find onerous?

@Babdoc it is funny how often on the feminist boards I find myself referred to by other women as emotional, irrational, naive, etc..

You don't actually get to dictate how your comments, opinions and beliefs are viewed by others. I feel that your comment regarding women who wear makeup being view as professional tarts extremely hate filled and misogynistic. You obviously do not hold that opinion and it is your right to do so, but as said, you do not get to decide on other peoples' behalf that it is not offensive.

it can be hard, though. If, for example, you are a teen with acne and are teased / bullied about it. If you are undergoing cancer treatment and every time you look in the mirror you are reminded about how ill you are. If your dry skin is sore and flakes

And I don't want to sound cringe and self indulgent but it can also be extra hard if you have from a young age had a lot of value placed on your physical appearance. I was also told throughout school how pretty I was and I find it very hard to imagine being happy with myself not looking groomed and ultra feminine. It's ingrained into my personality down to my mannerisms and I don't know how much is me and how much is dictated by my perception of how others see me.

I imagine many of the appearance obsessed women we see on social media feel similar. That is one thing I don't do, because I don't really have time and it doesn't benefit me. But in real life social settings it would be a cold day in hell before I went out without makeup and softly styled hair. And I don't wear heavy looking makeup, but it takes even bloody longer to make it look natural! I can really relate to the poster who was saying about the author who wrote about "beauty rituals" taking away womens' power through time and money.

On the other hand, I enjoy it. I enjoy the process and the result. Don't know how to get around that really.

We're expected to be groomed and put in the time, money and effort, without looking like we do.

It's the same trope as women in films who stuff pizza in their mouths and men love that they're 'not like other girls, always on a diet'. Be thin, but eat like you're not.

Lament the societal pressures and shitty way women are influenced, sure, but don't pretend it's hard to opt out if that's what you want to do.

So many say 'oh I only...' Well of course. I don't dye my hair, because I have well-behaved blonde hair. I don't wear push ups because I have big breasts. I don't wear heels because I'm tall. I've never waxed because I don't have to. But I do wear make up because I look like Boris Becker without. All the women who 'never wax'. I'm willing to bet in most cases they don't have a very dark moustache.

Even my mum, who is a proper 70s feminist, worries about her thinning hair. My dad doesn't.