Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

Most people are not denied citizenship rights in the country in which they were born and raised.

This is hilarious. You must not know that just being born and raised in UK doesn’t make you a British citizen. Look up your citizenship laws. Thousands are born every year in U.K., and raised in U.K. as nonBriridh citizens.

Bugger our global responsibilities

@KidneyBeans. You mean what the US thinks is the responsible way to go. It’s not globally agreed on. France, Germany and U.K. have different view. Why should U.K. copy the US?

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@KidneyBeans
At which point in her life did she have 'elite dual citizenship'
Please do describe the benefits she reaped?

Begum was born a dual citizen. The benefits of dual citizenship are many...

Most people only have the right to live and work in one country. Dual citizens can the right to live and work in two countries. Most people can only claim state benefits in one country, dual citizens can claim state benefits in two countries. Most people can have only one passport, dual citizens can carry two passports. Most people can only contact one embassy for support, dual citizens can contact two embassies for support.

Look at the fall of Kabul in Afghanistan. Who was being evacuated out? It was vast majority dual citizens who had Afghan/US or Afghan/U.K. status that could get to the airport. Anyone who was not a dual citizen had to get special authorisation and be on a list for doing recorded exceptional service for US/U.K. government during the occupation. So all these dual citizens simply by virtue of their elite status were able to decide to leave Afghanistan and be automatically evacuated to their other country of citizenship. Whereas all the sole citizens of Afghanistan were left at the mercy of the Taliban.[/quote]
But even if you think SB benefitted from her dual citizenship status, and there isn't actually much evidence that she did, it is unbelievable that you think she should lose the citizenship of the country in which she was born and raised, the only country which she actually knows and the only country for which she had ever held a passport. It would have been more understandable if Bangladesh had chosen to remove her right to citizenship - she was not born there, never lived there, didn't speak the language, never applied for a passport etc. Arguably it would have been a privilege for her to retain any claim to Bangladeshi citizenship under those circumstances.

Are you saying that the children who are born and raised in the UK to immigrant parents don't actually have any right to British citizenship? And that it is a favour that we bestow on them for as long as we wish but can remove whenever we want? I find that point of view very disturbing.

But how is it a privilege to be allowed to retain the citizenship that you acquired at birth, and of the country in which you grew up?

It’s a privilege to have two citizenships. I did not say the above.

Are you saying that we are somehow doing the children of immigrant parents a favour by allowing them to have British citizenship?

No and not all dual citizens are children of immigrants to U.K. An equal number are British born abroad, as was Boris Johnson.

A favour that we can apparently retract at whim because it is a privilege, and not a right? I really don't like where you're going with that argument.
As we’ve said before, a citizenship isn’t stripped “at a whim” but only in event of serious crimes against the country of citizenship, in the case of Begum voluntarily leaving and going to join a terrorist organisation that was fighting against the U.K. and killing British citizens abroad.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Most people are not denied citizenship rights in the country in which they were born and raised.

This is hilarious. You must not know that just being born and raised in UK doesn’t make you a British citizen. Look up your citizenship laws. Thousands are born every year in U.K., and raised in U.K. as nonBriridh citizens.

Yes, I am aware of the rules regarding citizenship, but SB was entitled to British citizenship at birth, so I'm not sure why this is relevant. You said that her position was the same as everyone else in the world born with one citizenship. That is patently not the case because she has lost the citizenship of the country in which she was born and raised, and she now holds the citizenship of another country with which she has only a tenuous connection and which denies all responsibility for her in any case. Notwithstanding the fact that some people aren't entitled to citizenship in the country where they are born and grow up, the vast majority of single citizenship individuals are not in a similar situation. And never would be, no matter how many heinous crimes they committed.

@ColorMagicBarbie

Having only read the first page I already know that this will go the same way as the Amy Cooper thread with posters happy to dismiss blatant xenophobia and criminal acts because the perpetrator is a woman.

The real victims were the Yazidi women and the others who Shamima helped sew into their suicide bomb corsets, preventing them being removed should the individual have a change of heart and decide they don't actually want to get blown up.

I also thought of Amy Cooper after following this thread. More sympathy and excuses pending.

Are you saying that the children who are born and raised in the UK to immigrant parents don't actually have any right to British citizenship?

Usually they do not. It’s not a point of view, it’s UK citizenship law that says it. Children can only inherit British citizenship from a British parent.

If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983, you’ll be a British citizen if one of your parents was a British citizen and ‘settled’ in the UK when you were born.

You’ll usually be a British citizen if one of your parents was born in the UK or naturalised there at the time of your birth. If you were born before July 2006, your father’s British nationality will normally only pass to you if he was married to your mother when you were born.

So if you were born in U.K. to immigrant parents neither of whom were a British citizen at your birth, or if only your father was British but wasn’t married to your mother you are not a British citizen. You can apply to naturalise once an adult. There are many thousands of children in this situation, born and raised in U.K. but not British citizens.

@PlanDeRaccordement

But how is it a privilege to be allowed to retain the citizenship that you acquired at birth, and of the country in which you grew up?

It’s a privilege to have two citizenships. I did not say the above.

Are you saying that we are somehow doing the children of immigrant parents a favour by allowing them to have British citizenship?

No and not all dual citizens are children of immigrants to U.K. An equal number are British born abroad, as was Boris Johnson.

A favour that we can apparently retract at whim because it is a privilege, and not a right? I really don't like where you're going with that argument.
As we’ve said before, a citizenship isn’t stripped “at a whim” but only in event of serious crimes against the country of citizenship, in the case of Begum voluntarily leaving and going to join a terrorist organisation that was fighting against the U.K. and killing British citizens abroad.

You haven't answered my questions. And you might not have said that it is a privilege to be allowed to retain the citizenship of your country of birth and where you grew up, but it is the very clear implication of what you are saying.

I was born a British citizen, and both of my parents are British. So I have an inalienable right to retain my British citizenship, no matter what terrible crimes I commit or what heinous organisations I might join. What you are saying is that British citizens who happen to have an immigrant parent should not have the same inalienable right; in other words, they can only be British for as long as they behave themselves and for as long as we are happy to tolerate them as such. I find that argument problematic.

Talking about other dual citizens is a red herring. I am talking about people who are born and raised in the UK, who are entitled to British citizenship at birth and who have never laid any claim to citizenship of another country even though they may be entitled to it by accident of birth.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Are you saying that the children who are born and raised in the UK to immigrant parents don't actually have any right to British citizenship?

Usually they do not. It’s not a point of view, it’s UK citizenship law that says it. Children can only inherit British citizenship from a British parent.

If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983, you’ll be a British citizen if one of your parents was a British citizen and ‘settled’ in the UK when you were born.

You’ll usually be a British citizen if one of your parents was born in the UK or naturalised there at the time of your birth. If you were born before July 2006, your father’s British nationality will normally only pass to you if he was married to your mother when you were born.

So if you were born in U.K. to immigrant parents neither of whom were a British citizen at your birth, or if only your father was British but wasn’t married to your mother you are not a British citizen. You can apply to naturalise once an adult. There are many thousands of children in this situation, born and raised in U.K. but not British citizens.

Actually, neither of your parents need to be a British citizen, they only need to have settled status in the UK.

But none of this is relevant to SB's situation. She was entitled to British citizenship at birth, but in your view, it would seem, only a second rate version of this.

It’s not a red herring that the same rules are applied to all dual citizens regardless of parentage. Whether you have immigrant parents or British parents, if you’re a dual citizen, the same rules apply to you. You are just trying to pretend this only affects children of immigrants, when it clearly does not.

Actually, neither of your parents need to be a British citizen, they only need to have settled status in the UK.

No, you’re not reading it correctly one parent must be British.

She was entitled to British citizenship at birth, but in your view, it would seem, only a second rate version of this.

It’s not a second rate version of citizenship. It’s full citizenship. Sorry but dual citizens are not a poor underclass, they are more privileged than sole citizens.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Bugger our global responsibilities

@KidneyBeans. You mean what the US thinks is the responsible way to go. It’s not globally agreed on. France, Germany and U.K. have different view. Why should U.K. copy the US?

It's not about 'copying the US' (you sound about 12)

It's about looking at the evidence base from experts in this issue.

@KidneyBeans
It's about looking at the evidence base from experts in this issue.

The “experts” from academia’s ivory tower that agree with you, you mean. You must think you know better than U.K. COBRA who decided Begum is too high a security risk and approved Javid stripping her citizenship...and that of 120+ others.

A favour that we can apparently retract at whim because it is a privilege, and not a right? I really don't like where you're going with that argument.

Well, providing you don't....y'know....join ISIS and assist in prepping suicide bombers then you should be A-ok.

Sediously, though, why waste so much thought on somebody who probably wouldn't even be repenting if things had turned out better for her.

Plenty of people in her situation who don't want to kill innocent people.

@ColorMagicBarbie
Exactly. Begum is full of “I’m sorry” now she has seen the other ISIS women face trial and be sentenced in Syria. She’s afraid of getting the same sentence of life in prison. She knows she’s committed more serious offences than a lot of the other ISIS women. She thinks if she were repatriated she’d get a lighter sentence. She’s only looking out for herself.

@PlanDeRaccordement

It’s not a red herring that the same rules are applied to all dual citizens regardless of parentage. Whether you have immigrant parents or British parents, if you’re a dual citizen, the same rules apply to you. You are just trying to pretend this only affects children of immigrants, when it clearly does not.

I'm not trying to pretend anything, but as the British mother of a British child born to an overseas-born father, yes, I have a particular interest in the rights of children in that situation. I make no apology for that.

My DH is now naturalised as a British citizen. As it happens, he is not a dual citizen as his country of origin doesn't permit this, but if it did, both he and my dd would be dual citizens. I think he would be the first to argue that his claim to British citizenship is qualitatively different from that of my daughter, who has only ever known this country.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Actually, neither of your parents need to be a British citizen, they only need to have settled status in the UK.

No, you’re not reading it correctly one parent must be British.

Actually, you are the one who is reading this wrong. Neither parent needs to be British.

@PlanDeRaccordement

She was entitled to British citizenship at birth, but in your view, it would seem, only a second rate version of this.

It’s not a second rate version of citizenship. It’s full citizenship. Sorry but dual citizens are not a poor underclass, they are more privileged than sole citizens.

Except when they're not.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@KidneyBeans
It's about looking at the evidence base from experts in this issue.

The “experts” from academia’s ivory tower that agree with you, you mean. You must think you know better than U.K. COBRA who decided Begum is too high a security risk and approved Javid stripping her citizenship...and that of 120+ others.[/quote]
I don't doubt she and other FTFs are a security risk

I simply disagree with the perspective of forcing other less well quipped nations to deal with a problem we sent to them.

You've already made it clear though that you think it's fine.

Crack on and sneer at 'academics' if it makes you feel better. You've repeatedly made erroneous claims and presented untrue information in this thread whilst calling names. It's hardly a robust position from which to criticise others, but your self-confidence in your own ignorance is really quite remarkable.

You're coming across as unpleasant as well as Ill-informed

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@ColorMagicBarbie
Exactly. Begum is full of “I’m sorry” now she has seen the other ISIS women face trial and be sentenced in Syria. She’s afraid of getting the same sentence of life in prison. She knows she’s committed more serious offences than a lot of the other ISIS women. She thinks if she were repatriated she’d get a lighter sentence. She’s only looking out for herself.[/quote]
Oh yeah I can totally see why you've dismissed the informed work of law professors and human rights experts.

You clearly have an excellent grasp of the nuances of law and ethics in the repatriation decisions of FTFs

@PlanDeRaccordement

She was entitled to British citizenship at birth, but in your view, it would seem, only a second rate version of this.

It’s not a second rate version of citizenship. It’s full citizenship. Sorry but dual citizens are not a poor underclass, they are more privileged than sole citizens.

I was thinking about this dual citizenship aspect. During Brexit there were Remainers claiming they could be entitled to Irish citizenship on the vaguest of connections.

So presumably it works both ways- brilliant when the person wants to secure an advantage. Not so brilliant if the person is a traitor towards one of the relevant counties.

So presumably it works both ways- brilliant when the person wants to secure an advantage. Not so brilliant if the person is a traitor towards one of the relevant counties.

Yes, you could argue that it goes both ways, but SB did not have a choice about whether to be a dual citizen. She did not claim any rights as a result of her Bangladeshi connections. Why should her rights as a British citizen be diminished due to an accident of birth over which she had no control?

@AlexaShutUp
“Actually, you are the one who is reading this wrong. Neither parent needs to be British.”

No
If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983, you’ll be a British citizen if one of your parents was a British citizen and ‘settled’ in the UK when you were born.

Read it again. It says if one of your parents was a British citizen AND settled in U.K. when you were born. Not “or”