Shamima Begum - misogyny at its finest?

[Schmoana]

Just saw the interview on GMB. It has struck me for a long time that there are hundreds of male ISIS fighters who are British citizens who have been allowed back and prosecuted where appropriate, even without grooming being a factor, and having been directly involved in killing. It’s hardly even reported. But this one woman has been vilified by the British people and British media, and made the figurehead of all that is wrong with ISIS. Her British citizenship has been stripped for populism.

Why is this one woman being held to different standards? What is the difference here between her and the hundreds of men who have been accepted back?

So what crime has SB been convicted of?

No conviction.

But joining ISIS is in itself a crime, and there isn't really any doubt that she did not do that - not least because she has repeatedly confessed

She should be in prison in the UK. She's our problem.

@meditrina

So what crime has SB been convicted of?

No conviction.

But joining ISIS is in itself a crime, and there isn't really any doubt that she did not do that - not least because she has repeatedly confessed

OK. So we are now imposing punishments without any need for a trial, and the punishments imposed on individuals can differ according to their parentage?

Are these really the values of justice and fairness that Britain is usually so eager to defend?

Age of consent/ sexual exploitation/ grooming etc. They are old enough and mature enough etc to know what they're doing.

In regards to age of consent and marital rape as you said, well that's dependent on laws in Syria. Consent varies across the world. It's 16 in the U.K. but even other European countries are lower than that. Who's to say she was a victim of rape? I don't recall her implying that, and didn't she want to reunite with her husband at some point?

Also, her being groomed doesn't absolve her of culpability, any more than any other young man groomed into hating the west/non Muslims/less conservative Muslims/anyone not like them and joining IS.

I see the argument from both sides but it’s probably worth bearing in mind that the UK government and security services know more about her than we will ever know.
Sajid Javid ( the Home Secretary) said he knew things about her that would make most people come up with the same decision.

But can she be brought back to the UK to face charges? She technically didn’t break the law hear, any crimes committed were committed in Syria.
Wouldn’t she face the justice system there?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-47435039.amp

Interview with Begums husband.

still do not believe that she should be treated differently from other British citizens simply because of where her parents were born.

She isn’t being treated differently. The U.K. is not repatriating any British ISIS members regardless of whether they are dual or single citizens.

so she should face the same consequences as any other British citizen would

Yes. All the other British ISIS members are being tried in Syria, Iraq, US....not one of them has been brought to U.K. to stand trial. Arguing she should be repatriated is arguing for special treatment for her

@Choccy21

I see the argument from both sides but it’s probably worth bearing in mind that the UK government and security services know more about her than we will ever know. Sajid Javid ( the Home Secretary) said he knew things about her that would make most people come up with the same decision.

I wouldn't necessarily be surprised by that. I've been thinking a lot about the psychology of dehumanisation, and the information that came out about what ISIS had done to Yazidi men, women and children was up there with the most famous concentration camp horrors.

What I ask is, was the same amount of ministerial attention paid to the actions of every single British citizen that went there to commit terrorism? And most importantly, do the people of Syria want to lumbered with her?

The more awful she is, the more I feel we have a responsibility to clear up our mess. If she'd been grown up in Bangladesh and gone on to join Isis from Bangladesh, people across the UK would be hopping mad if Bangladesh used a similar legal loophole to remove her Bangladeshi citizenship and categorise her as just our problem.

@NiceGerbil
International law says it is illegal to leave anyone citizenless.

No, it says it is illegal to leave anyone stateless. Begum was not left stateless. The stripping of her British citizenship was upheld by high court ruling. She is not stateless.

Picking and choosing how individual Britons get treated depending on political/ media reasons is a total disaster. And a really dodgy precedent.

Exactly, so why are you swayed by the media’s sympathetic portrayal of Begum to choose for her different treatment from all the other British ISIS members? That’s literally what you are arguing for.

@Choccy21

But can she be brought back to the UK to face charges? She technically didn’t break the law hear, any crimes committed were committed in Syria. Wouldn’t she face the justice system there?

That’s not standard British procedure to repatriate a criminal either if they’re British back home, or if they’re foreign back to their home country. Around 10% of the U.K. prison population is foreign nonBritish criminals who committed crimes in U.K., were tried in U.K. and will serve their prison time in U.K.

The reason why most countries don’t send home foreign criminals is because their home country usually will be more lenient on them for crimes committed abroad.

Think of the Harry Dunn situation. That US criminal fled the country and is facing no charges in US whatsoever for her crime. That situation is going against usual international practice which is why it is a travesty. She should have beeb arrested here, tried here and served time in UK because she committed crime in U.K.

@AlexaShutUp
So we are now imposing punishments without any need for a trial, and the punishments imposed on individuals can differ according to their parentage?

Again, stripping a dual citizen of one of their citizenships is removing a privilege that most people do not have being sole citizens. It’s a punishment, but it’s knocking them out of an elite status down to normal/average status. Of course people with only one citizenship cannot be stripped of it because international law states no one can be left stateless. Before this law came into place, countries did leave people stateless there got to be around 2 million stateless people.

The interview appeared to me like someone who realised they had backed the wrong horse, and was back-pedalling.

The girl who ran away with her teacher believed she was in love, and that her actions would impact nobody but the two of them. That is a VERY different situation to leaving the country to join a violent terrorist organisation - yes she said she didn't know ISIS were violent, but really, let's be realistic. At 15 she can read headlines walking past a newsagents if nothing else.

I think the government are right to put their foot down on this one. If the details were ever to come out in full (which they undoubtably would) the backlash for the Muslim community would be horrific. Why should innocent people be targeted (by idiots, admittedly) for crimes that SHE committed when she had turned her back on the country?

Having only read the first page I already know that this will go the same way as the Amy Cooper thread with posters happy to dismiss blatant xenophobia and criminal acts because the perpetrator is a woman.

The real victims were the Yazidi women and the others who Shamima helped sew into their suicide bomb corsets, preventing them being removed should the individual have a change of heart and decide they don't actually want to get blown up.

She committed acts within a war zone that would normally be dealt with militarily. The ideal situation for the British state would be if she had died in a drone strike. The second best would be for Syria to deal with her themselves. Taking any uncertainty over a prosecution in England is not in the public interest, hence the decision to strip her of her citizenship—she can go to Bangladesh and has said so, but would face the death penalty. Britain won’t let her return due to weaknesses in our treason laws. Syria will hopefully imprison her shortly.

@PlanDeRaccordement

still do not believe that she should be treated differently from other British citizens simply because of where her parents were born.

She isn’t being treated differently. The U.K. is not repatriating any British ISIS members regardless of whether they are dual or single citizens.

so she should face the same consequences as any other British citizen would

Yes. All the other British ISIS members are being tried in Syria, Iraq, US....not one of them has been brought to U.K. to stand trial. Arguing she should be repatriated is arguing for special treatment for her

But she is being treated differently. She has had her citizenship rights removed.

I am not arguing for repatriation if that isn't happening for other British citizens. I'm arguing for equal treatment.

All those men. Who lets face it are way more likely to have been out doing awful stuff than young women. The roles are clear. Girls are for sex and babies and looking after men. What Isis have done to girls and women is grotesque. Unpalatable. The men are for decision making fighting etc. All those men who are given that organisation will have been attacking. Men are fighters. No press. Back here. Loads. Prison etc.

Not exactly. The Yazidi sex slaves were for sex. Some ISIS women were simply mothers/wives as was Nora Camali (British serving life in prison in Syria), but not all. A fair number were ISIS snipers as was Linda Wenzel (German, serving life in prison in Iraq). A fair number joined the female police who patrolled streets and homes with semi-automatic rifles with authority to correct and kill anyone not obeying ISIS laws as was Shamina Begum. Other women also built and put together bombing vests while grooming teenagers to be suicide bombers for the cause as did Shamina Begum. Other women worked as recruiters grooming more young people to come join ISIS as did Sally Jones (British killed by targeted drone strike as she was on British kill list).

I reject entirely this notion that all women in ISIS were victims with no agency and no culpability.

But she is being treated differently. She has had her citizenship rights removed

Why should she continue to have elite dual citizen status? Stripping her of one citizenship only puts her down with the rest of us who have only one citizenship. Yes it’s different treatment, but all it does is make her equal to the majority of people in the world who didn’t join ISIS.

It’s similar to your speeding fines....the more you earn, the higher your fine. Richer are being treated differently but still equally.

[quote PlanDeRaccordement]@AlexaShutUp
So we are now imposing punishments without any need for a trial, and the punishments imposed on individuals can differ according to their parentage?

Again, stripping a dual citizen of one of their citizenships is removing a privilege that most people do not have being sole citizens. It’s a punishment, but it’s knocking them out of an elite status down to normal/average status. Of course people with only one citizenship cannot be stripped of it because international law states no one can be left stateless. Before this law came into place, countries did leave people stateless there got to be around 2 million stateless people.[/quote]
But how is it a privilege to be allowed to retain the citizenship that you acquired at birth, and of the country in which you grew up? Are you saying that we are somehow doing the children of immigrant parents a favour by allowing them to have British citizenship? A favour that we can apparently retract at whim because it is a privilege, and not a right? I really don't like where you're going with that argument.

@PlanDeRaccordement

But she is being treated differently. She has had her citizenship rights removed

Why should she continue to have elite dual citizen status? Stripping her of one citizenship only puts her down with the rest of us who have only one citizenship. Yes it’s different treatment, but all it does is make her equal to the majority of people in the world who didn’t join ISIS.

It’s similar to your speeding fines....the more you earn, the higher your fine. Richer are being treated differently but still equally.

It does not make her equal to most other people. Most people are not denied citizenship rights in the country in which they were born and raised.

@PlanDeRaccordement

But she is being treated differently. She has had her citizenship rights removed

Why should she continue to have elite dual citizen status? Stripping her of one citizenship only puts her down with the rest of us who have only one citizenship. Yes it’s different treatment, but all it does is make her equal to the majority of people in the world who didn’t join ISIS.

It’s similar to your speeding fines....the more you earn, the higher your fine. Richer are being treated differently but still equally.

At which point in her life did she have 'elite dual citizenship' Please do describe the benefits she reaped?

And how her current status with no consular support, passport, family ties, common language or de facto citizenship in Bangladesh is the same as other Bangladeshi citizens ?

You can keep repeating yourself (you have a talent for it)
But repeating an inaccuracy doesn't make it more accurate

She was asked in a roundabout way if she committed vile acts if terror? Like sewing suicide vests to bombers.
Obviously none of us know the truth but she’s hardly going to admit it if she did is she?

The Supreme Court even backed the UK governments decision.
So I’d be inclined to think it was right after they looked at her appeal.

@Flowers500

She committed acts within a war zone that would normally be dealt with militarily. The ideal situation for the British state would be if she had died in a drone strike. The second best would be for Syria to deal with her themselves. Taking any uncertainty over a prosecution in England is not in the public interest, hence the decision to strip her of her citizenship—she can go to Bangladesh and has said so, but would face the death penalty. Britain won’t let her return due to weaknesses in our treason laws. Syria will hopefully imprison her shortly.

The second best would be for Syria to deal with her themselves.

Yep - force a third nation recovering from war to deal with our FTFs.
Bugger our global responsibilities and the longterm likelihood of fomenting extremism.
Just as long as we're alright

@KidneyBeans
At which point in her life did she have 'elite dual citizenship'
Please do describe the benefits she reaped?

Begum was born a dual citizen. The benefits of dual citizenship are many...

Most people only have the right to live and work in one country. Dual citizens can the right to live and work in two countries. Most people can only claim state benefits in one country, dual citizens can claim state benefits in two countries. Most people can have only one passport, dual citizens can carry two passports. Most people can only contact one embassy for support, dual citizens can contact two embassies for support.

Look at the fall of Kabul in Afghanistan. Who was being evacuated out? It was vast majority dual citizens who had Afghan/US or Afghan/U.K. status that could get to the airport. Anyone who was not a dual citizen had to get special authorisation and be on a list for doing recorded exceptional service for US/U.K. government during the occupation. So all these dual citizens simply by virtue of their elite status were able to decide to leave Afghanistan and be automatically evacuated to their other country of citizenship. Whereas all the sole citizens of Afghanistan were left at the mercy of the Taliban.